Not unreasonable assumption == reasonable assumption? 3

[BillyRayPreachersSon]

A quick search of the forum didn't show any previous discussion on the topic, and as for a Google search? Well... let's just say that I've never, ever seen an answer on Yahoo! Answers worth reading, and I've not been disappointed this time, either

Take the following two statements:
[ul][li]I make the reasonable assumption that you accept the existence of the Moon[/li]
[li]I make the not unreasonable assumption that you accept the existence of the Moon[/li][/ul]

If I was writing a letter, and wanted to convey to the recipient that I believe that they could not reasonably deny the Moon's existence, I believe either of the statements would work just as well.

So, is there a difference? Is one better to use than the other? More importantly, does one have any specific legal meaning that the other does not?

Note: It's not the Moon that I will be referring to in my letter, and personally, I would always choose the first of the two statements... the second seems like "poshing it up" for no real reason (perhaps what Eartha kitt might have referred to as "OED tastes, Collins Pocket pockets"? ;-))

Thanks!

Dan



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[Annihilannic]

Isn't it not just a double negative, or not?

Annihilannic
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[hjgoldstein]

I think that there may be a difference in emphasis.

For example, I may consider that "common" has more emphasis than "not uncommon".

In your example, "reasonable" would carry more weight than "not unreasonable" which to me conveys a scintilla of doubt.



It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[IPGuru]

I would have to agree with hjgoldstien that not unreasonable is not the same as reasonable.

IMO we are not dealing with a binary system with results of unreasonable or reasonable but a system with at least 3 possibilities,

Unreasonable, Undecided, Resonable


a similar thing can be said of the terms wrong, not wrong,not-right & right

something that is not-wrong is not necessarily right & something that is not right is not necessarily wrong.

as an example take traffic lights on amber.

you cannot say it is right to pass but like wise you cannot describe it a wrong to pass either.



Mundus vult decipi decipiatur ergo.

 

[drlex]

Dan,
I'd say that your thought of the double negative "poshing it up a bit" ties in with my experience of often hearing it in Court room settings. Such then echoes with your point of "specific legal meaning" - there are plenty of laws which include reference to what is "reasonable". If you're writing a letter before proceedings or a document of record, I'd leave it as the first statement.


soi là, soi carré

 

[BillyRayPreachersSon]

Excellent. I'd pretty much come to that conclusion after many more hours of editing, but it's good to have a second, third, fourth... opinion

Now, as much as I would dearly loved to have used the phrase "the man on the Clapham omnibus", I decided that using "believe an impartial person would consider" would be more likely to be taken seriously - such a shame



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[hjgoldstein]

Dan,

Why don't you explain the origins of "The man on the Clapham Omnibus" for the benefit of our friends from the Good Ole US of A? (And other parts). I'm sure they would appreciate it.

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[CajunCenturion]

The use of a "non un-" phase, as in not uncommon or not unreasonable, is called a litotes and it is used as an intentional form of understatement.

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[drlex]

BRPS, I will now think of you as Dan Piranha:

"He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, paradoy, litotes and... satire."



soi là, soi carré

 

[drlex]

/s paradoy parody

soi là, soi carré

 

[kwbMitel]

I do not believe the two terms are the same or even close. The double negative creates a bias, whereby the thing being discussed is closer to being unreasonable than reasonable. The same trick is used by pollsters all the time. By the very nature of the question (Statement), you can influence the response.

Do you agree that the statements are the same?
Do you disagree that the statements are different?

It is my opinion that questionaires using one of the questions above would have different results than the other. I'm sure there are studies on the pshychology of this but I'll leave it there. Nuff said.


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[DrB0b]

Not exactly the same following but more along the lines of what kwb was saying:

http://www.visioncritical.com/blog/why-the-way-you-ask-a-question-can-determine-the-answer/

Something to think about, but possible for a different topic:

http://www.newdaynewlesson.com/the-way-you-ask-a-question-makes-all-the-difference/

And to end it all up, a liitle incorrect word play to the humor of us all;

http://thisisthestoryof.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/i-mustache-you-a-question-word-play/

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver...

 

[IPGuru]

There is a brilliant episode of Yes (prime?)minister where the personal secretary demonstrates exactly that effect by asking a series of questions before asking if you were for or against national service

One set of questions lead to a firm Yes
the other set lead to a firm no.

I cant remember the episode name so I cant post any links

Mundus vult decipi decipiatur ergo.

 

[IPGuru]

found a transcript

http://users.aims.ac.za/~mackay/probability/survey.html

Mundus vult decipi decipiatur ergo.

 

[hjgoldstein]

Then there's the unanswerable question such as "Mr Smith, yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife?"

It is time for pacifists to stand up and fight for their beliefs.

 

[CajunCenturion]

There is no debate that people use biased questions to support an agenda, but biased questions and litotes are not the same things.

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[kwbMitel]

I agree that Biased Questions and litotes are not the same thing. The questions I used were to illustrate the point, not become the point.

The fact remains that a bias is created, in much the same way as questions.

Do you not disagree?

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[CajunCenturion]

Oh I agree, but the question that BillyRayPreachersSon asked to start this thread was about litotes. I don't want anyone who was previously unfamiliar with that term to think that it also applied or was related to the tangential discussion about biased questions.


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[CajunCenturion]

As far as litotes in and of themselves creating a bias, no, I don't really agree with that. The purpose of a litotes to understate a case by negating the opposite. It establishes, as hjgoldstein suggested above, a degree of emphasis.

The assumption was very reasonable.
The assumption was more than reasonable.
The assumption was reasonable.
The assumption was not unreasonable. (litotes - The assumption is not quite reasonable, but not unreasonable)
The assumption was unreasonable.

All of the above statements make a qualitative judgment about this assumption, but each one shows a different degree of reasonableness, if you will. The not unreasonable sentence is the only one that it a litotes.

I don't see that as creating a bias as does a pollster when asking biased questions to support an agenda.

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[kwbMitel]

Ahh, but you make my point for me. I did not say that biased questions were the same as litotes but I used the qualifier "Much" to denote that they are similar in that they both create bias.

Different degrees of reasonableness is bias.

I had an instance today of common usage of this method. In a discussion with my manager this morning, she used the term, "I'm not disagreeing with you but...". I chuckled and got immediate clarification. She did not mean that she was agreeing with me. Her bias (degree of agreeing) was more towards disagreeing with me.

I'm unsure that you will support these statements but I'm somewhat confident that what I mean is clear if not the way I am saying it.



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What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.