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CRilliterate

Technical User
Dec 7, 2005
467
US
These are interesting...
Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and still smelled pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor. Hence the custom today of carrying a bouquet when getting married.

Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."

Houses had thatched roofs-thick straw-piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof. When it rained, it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and off the roof. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."

There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That is how canopy beds came into existence.

The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt. Hence the saying "dirt poor". The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they added more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entranceway. Hence the saying a "thresh hold."

(Getting quite an education, aren't you?)

In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes stew had food in it that had been there for quite a while. Hence the rhyme, "Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."

Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special. When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth that a man could "bring home the bacon". They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat".

Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.

Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or "upper crust".

Lead cups were used to drink ale or whisky. The combination would sometimes knock the imbibers out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake".

England is old and small and the local folks started running out of places to bury people. So they would dig up coffins and would take the bones to a "bone-house" and reuse the grave. When reopening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up thr! ough the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (the "graveyard shift") to listen for the bell; thus, someone could be "saved by the bell" or was considered a "dead ringer".

And that's the truth... Now, whoever said that History was boring ! ! !

Educate someone...Share these facts with a friend

 
Brown/gray/soap scum floating on surface of the bathtub suppose to in swimming pool chlorine water not?
 
We seem to get getting off topic. Bathing habits throughout history have documented and they are what they are, regardless of how we might feel about those habits today.

Back to the topic at hand, the phrase 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater' does not seem to have any etymological tie, other than by analogy, to historical bathing habits.

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The tie I would say if they did what they did - few toddlers last in - last out - water so dirty that one who's hair matching water color closer gets out thrown.
Also they probably dod it with no light, thought of that?
 
From the link that anotherhiggins gave us...

Most people got married in June. Why? They took their yearly bath in May, so they were till smelling pretty good by June, although they were starting to smell, so the brides would carry a bouquet of flowers to hide their b.o.

Although the modern practice of full-immersion bathing was a long way off in the 1500s (among other reasons because filling a vessel large enough to hold a person with heated water was rather impractical given the effort required to collect fresh water and fuel for heating it), people did still "bathe" in the sense of attempting to clean themselves as best they could with the resources at hand.

Although today's brides carry flowers simply because it is now the custom to do so, at one time bridal bouquets were symbols of sexuality and fertility. Covering up anyone's bad smell played no part in why this custom came into being.

Like I said, they took their yearly bath in May, but it was just a big tub that they would fill with hot water. The man of the house would get the privilege of the nice clean water. Then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was pretty thick. Thus, the saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water," it was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it.

Although the admonition against throwing the baby out with the bathwater dates back to the 16th century, its roots are Germanic, not English. Its first written occurrence was in Thomas Murner's 1512 versified satirical book Narrenbeschwörung, and its meaning is purely metaphorical. (In simpler terms, no babies, no bathwater, just a memorable mental image meant to drive home a bit of advice against overreaction.)

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"
 
Trevoke got to this before I did.....

See HERE for a very detailed explanation of the "baby and bathwater" phrase origin.

So, we've covered the origins of wedding bouquets and tossing out small children with used bathwater. Would anyone else like to give the correct explanation of the phrases referenced in the orginal post?

Susan
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
- Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
 
Again.. Just read through this article.

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"
 
I wondered when first reading the OP, just what kind of dog climbs well enough to get *into* the thatch roof? And even if there's a breed that can climb well enough, it would likely be WAY too large to hang out up there.

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[tab][red]The plural of anecdote is not data[/red]

Help us help you. Please read FAQ181-2886 before posting.
 
I just read the link SF posted and I have so much to say about phrase I found there:
"fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well."

What kind of 'good' is this then?
Like gorgeous house in a woods infested with poisonous snakes? Can you think of an example of something good that exist in harmony with something bad that needs NOT to be destroyed? I can't. So the phrase itself seems to me invalid so why to rely on this source of explanation?
 
Let's see......

I don't care for bats. I find them creepy. And there are a lot of bats out in the country where I live (the Hill Country in Texas, near San Antonio and Austin). However, bats eat insects - a lot of insects. Tons. I dislike mosquitoes even more than I dislike bats.

If I were to attempt to get rid of the bats, I might be successful, but the result would be an increase in mosquitoes and other insects around my home. I could spray my home, yards, etc., with pesticides to get rid of the increased insect population, but that would cost money and would not be as effective.

So, I live with the bats. I have two bat houses in the woods near my home, and I smile when I see the bats out at dusk, eating up the yummy mosquitoes - instead of the mosquitoes eating up the yummy people.

To go back to the phrase you quote, CR, "fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well." The "bad thing" in my example is the bats. The "good" is the appetite of the bats for insects.

Does this help?

Susan
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
- Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
 

"fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well."
...
Can you think of an example of something good that exist in harmony...


Why necessarily in harmony? Does a baby exist in harmony in bathwather?
You can even throw the baby with the wather by overdoing on any good idea to the point where it becomes not so good.


What kind of 'good' is this then?

Like wheat with the weeds?
Like your pet with the rodents?
Like your important documents when over-zelously cleaning out your old papers?
Like a baby with the bathwater? ;-)

Or, more to the point of what it actually means,
don't outright dismiss an idea because it looks stupid/undoable before looking carefully into it; it may containg something of an undeniable value in it.

 
So you are not destroying anythig.
So you aren't by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing destroying whatever good there was as well.

Example invalid. Bats are bad, moskitos are bad - where is a good thing? appetite you can not destroy...it is not what that sentense about. IMO

To follow the saying you should have because of hating bats trying to destroy them and doing it to destroy a house.
So then you would be THE "fool who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well." With all the respect...
 

"fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well."

You are taking that phrase too literally. Moreover, I wouldn't consider that phrase alone to be a good complete explanation and substitute of the phrase "to trow a baby with the bathwater". You are trying to explain "fools destroying", and we are trying to explain "baby with the water". Not exactly the same thing.
 
Stella has a good point.

The FOOL is trying to destroy a BAD THING, but the FOOL does not see the GOOD THING hidden in the seemingly BAD THING.

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"
 
CR said:
Example invalid. Bats are bad, moskitos are bad - where is a good thing? appetite you can not destroy

Example not invalid. Example very valid. Appetite can be destroyed by killing bats.

It is a fine example of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.

[!]A1[/!]) The bathwater is dirty, so you throw it out.
[!]A2[/!]) The bats are creepy, so you kill them.

[!]B1[/!]) The bathwater contains the baby hidden within. Throwing the bathwater out a window would be a very bad idea without first checking to see if there is anything valuable (like your child) in it.
[!]B2[/!]) The bats eat insects, including mosquitoes. Killing the bats because they are creepy would be a very bad idea without first considering what repercussions there might be (many more mosquito bites).

Essentially, you are eliminating something that is perceived as 'bad', only to cause something worse as a direct result of your actions.

People who spend lots of time studying the origins of phrases have pretty well documented where this expression came from. It did not come about as described in the original post.

[tt]_____
[blue]-John[/blue][/tt]
[tab][red]The plural of anecdote is not data[/red]

Help us help you. Please read FAQ181-2886 before posting.
 
>Example invalid. Bats are bad, moskitos are bad - where is a good thing?

SF0751 makes that pretty clear - bats provide a good function, even though he doesn't like them too much, because they eat mosquitos (which he likes even less). The example seems pretty solid to me.

 
to trow a baby with the bathwater" = "fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well"

Meaning not to see good in a bad and to get rid of it ALL TOGETHER without fishing GOOD out of the bad. Right?
I want example still.
 
The bat example is very valid. In the bat example, you don't throw out the bathwater, either. However, it's by examination of the bathwater that you realize you shouldn't throw it away.

"That time in Seattle... was a nightmare. I came out of it dead broke, without a house, without anything except a girlfriend and a knowledge of UNIX."
"Well, that's something," Avi says. "Normally those two are mutually exclusive."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"
 
Another example is someone who throws out the television because they don't like sit-coms and cartoons. Of course, at the same time, they throw out the ability to watch news, sporting events, and other 'good' shows.

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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Or someone who completely cuts off their internet access to get rid of spam.



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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
 
Hi,
The key word we seem to be overlooking in the phrase
"fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well"
is fools
- it does not imply that you cannot throw out just the bad..

As to bad/good together...Well if I have a bunion I do not want to cut off my toe to get rid of it ( A fool might)..

Gee, that seems to be like 'cutting off your nose to spite your face..'





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