not-quite-student posting 2

[LFCfan]

i have a question for you all - not sure if this is the right forum, but i can't think of another more relevant one and
it seems like a vaguely ethical question to me. More of a TT-specific etiquette question really.

i currently participate in some fora that are relevant to what i do at work (VB/ASP.NET, C#, SQL Server).
Now say i want to teach myself a new language for fun (i want to learn something lower level, in order to gain a better
understanding of what goes on under the hood, so to speak. And, of course, for fun!).

What if i come up against problems in one of my "toy" projects, and would like to post a question on a forum?
Would it be acceptable to post on Tek-Tips for this, or am i in this instance classed as a student (lazy or otherwise!)?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this....

 

[DrJavaJoe]

I think the biggest problems with students posting is that they pretty much copy and paste their homework assignment and expect it to be answered completely without any effort on their own. I think if you're learning a new language and ask a reasonable question such as I am trying to do such and such and have tried this and that but can't seem to get it to work can someone point me in the right direction, then I think you'll find people here willing to help. My 2 cents.

 

[jrbarnett]

lfcfan,

Slightly off thread topic, but when I'm learning something new for personal use I will read previously written posts and FAQs in the subject area to help broaden my knowledge - but I won't ask questions on it.
Instead, I will try things out and attempt to get it working through my own efforts. This is far more personally satisfying than using something written by somebody else.
If it is urgent however, I will think about taking a solution written for somebody else and adapt it and have done this in the past, and then at a later date, rewritten it from scratch.

If I'm learning something new for work use, that is different entirely and I feel justified in posting here in an appropriate forum. However, when I have done this mostly I have met with a blank response, and ended up fixing the problem on my own, several weeks afterwards.

John

 

[benlinkknilneb]

lfcfan,
If you're actually trying to learn the stuff, most people can tell. The ones who just want answers, like JavaJoe mentions, will get ignored. In fact, I have posted to TT on many occasions doing just what you're suggesting, because programming, for me, is a hobby as well as a job. If the people who read your question can tell you've tried several things, they'll usually jump right in and answer when they can. I know I do it... even if it IS a student post, sometimes. Some students are really making an effort. I'm not saying I answer all the students who post... but if I can see the person is really wanting to know something (not just trying to get homework done on time), I'll help 'em out. Granted, I don't give them the answer, either. I usually say something like "look for _____" or "try a Google for _____".

Ben
A programmer was drowning. Lots of people watched but did nothing. They couldn't understand why he yelled "F1!"

 

[edfair]

Post away. If anybody questions it tell them to look at your profile.
Students are generally new posters.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[SQLSister]

From the link explaining why students are not to post.

"Students are not allowed to post homework problems in the Tek-Tips forums for the purpose of getting answers to their homework. This is considered cheating. Offending posts will be removed from the site and offending members will lose their membership privileges."

Since you are learning for personal use and not trying to get an undeserved grade, it can hardly be cheating. I'd post away.

 

[rosieb]

lfcfan

Hi

I'm busy trying to learn VBA, no training, so pick it up as I go. Ask a sensible question, someone will, usually, answer. My experience is that most respondants don't offer tailored solutions but are willing to jump thru all kinds of hoops to help, if you look as if you are really trying to work a problem out - not just looking for an easy answer.

Go for it....


Opioniated, always; correct, occasionally; so, enlighten me.
Rosie

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

I agree I don't have a problem with people trying to learn because in essense this is what you do when you ask a question and really care about the answer. Where most people get annoyed is when there is a question that is very likely to be cut and pasted from a homework assignment then they ask for actual code and you know they are going to just cut and paste it into their homework assignment and not learn anything besides cut and paste.

I'll never stop learning I hope and through support like TT it just makes it easier and more important I get a better view of my question because with more complicated one you get more answers from different points of view.

Ask away in my opinion.

 

[harebrain]

If you want to stay employed in the IT business, you have no choice but to continually learn new things. I think everybody here understands that.

So I treat questions here the same way that I would treat questions from a co-worker: if I can give an answer, I do. However, if I get the feeling that someone is trying to take advantage of me (like trying to get me to do six months of work for them) I tell them to get lost.

Now it's December and I've seen several questions here that are obviously statements of a semester's project. To those I have no compunction about saying "go away."

 

[Murgle]

lfcfan

I think edfair makes a good point here - it is very easy to tell from someones profile if they are both a contributor to and beneficiary of these fora. One look at your profile would indicate that there are areas you are very strong in, and have received tipmaster votes, meaning you have been helpful to the group. I don't think anyone would question the motives of someone who has demonstrated knowledge and the willingness to share it to help others.

I think the other point to make is that we are all students of varying degree - I am sure the vast majority of Tek-Tippers are self taught to some extent, and will have gone through the same/similar learning experiences that you will face when taking on a new subject. I for one would have no problem in giving help or guidance in these circumstances.

Ahhhhh, I see you have a machine that goes Bing!

 

[LFCfan]

Dear All,

Many thanks for your responses. To be honest, they were pretty much what i was expecting, but i'm into double-checking!
Obviously, the usual rules apply, of extensive googling etc prior to posting on TT. Which tends to be a good laugh as well - i usually accidentally stumble on something to crack me up on google groups!
I'll fire away then, when needed...

thanks again, and have a good weekend

 

[CajunCenturion]

The issue in not students.

The issue is posting homework questions. It is not always easy to tell that a question is homework vs a business problem, but common sense does help.

The issue is questions from people who are not professional, and thus wasting the time of those professionals who are here to help their fellow professional.

It also can make a difference on how you answer the question. I'm sure we're all familar with the "give a man a fish", vs "teach the man to fish" story, and in my personal opionion, we should hand out far less fish than we do (self included), and do more teaching.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[lionelhill]

Cajun's right. Tek tips is a self-proclaimed site for professionals. In my view, a student (without earning a penny from IT), who asks a serious, well-thought out question, is a professional, albeit at an early stage of their career. It's really a question of professional behaviour rather than what you get paid for doing the job.

 

[dilettante]

It's also very different to see a question like "I'm going to have to start working with technology X and I was looking for advice on some solid beginner sites and recommended books."

Hopefully such a question is followed by acquiring the introductory information and reference materials and then using them to gain a little experience. As always in this field, the most time-wasting and annoying questions can be of the type where the answer is clearly available in the standard reference materials on the subject.

I'm not sure I completely buy into the "'professional behavior' makes the professional" theory. This sounds absurd to me, though the sentiment is common here on Tek-Tips so I'm probably in the minority. Look at another field - let's say plumbing.

If somebody goes into "Plumb-Tips" and asks questions about DIY plumbing chores, no matter how gracefully they ask their questions it's apparent they aren't professionals. In general that's the view over in Eng-Tips as well. Why should we be asked to accept a lower standard?

Apprentice, journeyman, master is the usual progression - literally or figuratively. We seem to have an awful lot of apprentices and hobbyists in Tek-Tips though. Out and out students posting homework represent a blatant enough case to deal with - these others are a tougher judgement call.

I agree with CajunCenturian though that I too fall prey to handing out the fishes all too often. Sometimes a question can lead off in an interesting direction, and before you know it you've solved the original problem in detail instead of providing fundamental advice or direction.

 

[jrbarnett]

I have started giving far less specific information out, saying "There's an FAQ somewhere in the Access forums that answers that question" or "There was a thread here a couple of weeks ago that answers the same thing" without giving details of which forum or the title, so that they have to go and look for it.

Unfortunately, this is normally followed up by somebody else saying "It's here" with a hyperlink to the relevant thread or FAQ document which negates the need for them to go and look."

John

 

[lionelhill]

I can see some sense in the plumber analogy, but I look at it like this: the person who asks a question here is a bit like an apprentice plumber, sitting round with his seniors(!) having a cup of coffee, who says "look, degungeing drains is no problem, but I'm learning how to install boilers in evening classes, and our teacher reckons...., but I think.... what do you think?" Talking to more experienced people is a valid part of his/her learning experience.

Also IT, unlike plumbing, is a field in which amateurs have always had a lot to offer. There aren't many people who get a leaky tap and end up plumbers for a whole street, but I'd imagine plenty of people here became IT specialists through aptitude, a need to do it for some particular part of their job, and a gradual process of evolution and self-training based on that.

Frankly, if someone's courteous and not causing me a problem, I don't care two hoots who they are!
Happy Christmas everyone!

 

[benlinkknilneb]

Right on, lionel;

That's exactly how I came into this forum. I started off trying to learn VB.NET at work... with no one training me, and only a single reference book for ADO.NET to guide me. I'll wager that I've asked some pretty "dumb" questions (read "non-professional"... I know, there's no such thing as a dumb question...) and in almost every case, someone has come through with the answer (or a way to find it).

After spending a year and a half learning this stuff from several different sources, I feel like I'm able to help out a lot more than I need to be helped. I try to follow the threads as much as possible, and contribute when I can. I've seen my share of students posting; the ones I won't try to help are discourteous or obviously just looking for answers rather than learning (ever seen the posts where they copy the whole source file for class xyz and ask you to find the error?)

To those of you "seniors" out there... thanks for putting up with my beginner questions, and showing me the ropes so I could make something out of it.

Ben
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!