No more support for NN4.xx!

[Rydel]

I started this thred in "HTML CSS" forum, but I think this is a more appropriate place to discuss this. Here is the orginal message:

Subject: Professional Web developers don't adapt their sites to NN4 anymore?

That's the impression I had. Probably the most important criteria: what's the actual percentage of NN4 users? Is there statistical data about it? I heard it's below 0,5% now. I need this to persuade my boss that maybe spending time and money on the NN4 version of the site is not worth it. Do you have some data regarding this? And what do you think about it over all?
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starway (Programmer) Aug 7, 2002:

To be short and to the point: the statement put into the title is not true. Due to my experience, support of NN4.x is critical to many clients, and it has nothing to do with percentage of usage. Use of NN4.x decreased during last couple of years but didn't disappeared completely.

Also, it's a question of professional proudness to web-dev company to support their works in NN4.x as well as in all other browsers (Mozilla/N6, IE, Opera).
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Rydel (Programmer) Aug 7, 2002:

Thanks for your answer! Although I don't quite agree with you. First of all, there are features that could be easily done in IE5+, but it's absolutely impossible to implement them in NN4.xx! Second, if the browser market share for NN4.xx indeed fell down below 1% then the user base is getting ridiculous. May be, by that rationale ("developers pride&quot you want to create the version of your site in LYNX as well? Oh, God...

P.S. Throwing some hard data into discussion would be quite helpful. Help? Anyone?

P.P.S. Maybe you defend NN4 compatibility so much because the cross-browser tricks os your bread and there is a big risk that with the improved standard compliance the "bread" will be gone? This is just a side note. You don't have to answer. ---

http://www.geocities.com/rydel23/

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[onpnt]

here's some data to add from

http://www.phase2studios.com/browser.html

"of course who's to say anything from the web is totaly accurate!"

The current browser usage statistics are:

74% Internet Explorer 5.x
Currently the best browser available. Period.

12% Internet Explorer 4.x
Fading quickly as users upgrade to version 5.

10% Netscape 4.x
Diehard Netscape users will soon have a percentage of the market comperable to Mac users. (5%) A once great browser that has failed to keep pace. (Where's all the open source innovation we were promised?) At least 4.x versions generally handle most of the advanced page coding tricks as well as IE 4 (and later) does. In combination, this gives developers a 95% "browser sweet spot" to aim at.

5% AOL
Also counted in the above IE statistics because AOL's browser uses the IE software engine. For all the talk about 20% or more of people who surf the web log on through AOL, this percentage is suprisingly small. This might suggest that AOL users spend less time on the Internet and visit far fewer sites than other users. It also could be that AOL's use of a Web site caching system for many of the most popular sites (to put less strain on their servers) cause AOL users to be under counted.

0.4% Internet Explorer 2.x
Legacy deadware being used on legacy hardware.

0.3% Internet Explorer 3.x
Legacy deadware being used on legacy hardware.

0.3% Netscape 3.x
Legacy deadware being used on legacy hardware.

0.3% Netscape 6.x
Many upgrade-minded users gave up on Netscape a while ago, and are not likely to switch back from IE 4 or 5 at this point -particularly since version 6 is extraordinarily buggy.

0.2% Opera
The only alternative browser that even registers a countable percentage. Still not up to speed in some areas and not likely to draw a lot of users given IE is free.
You cannot mandate productivity, you must provide the tools to let people become their best.
-Steve Jobs
admin@onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[onpnt]

also as you can see if you go to the link this was dated march 1, 2001
alot can change in that amount of time.
so I searched a little more and found
this up to date graph

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/August/browser.php

stating that 3% are NS 4 users.
1. MSIE 5.x 34649569 (49%)
2. MSIE 6.x 28316051 (40%)
3. Netscape 4.x 2091446 (3%)
4. MSIE 4.x 1847190 (2%)
5. Netscape comp. 703713 (1%)
6. Opera x.x 597756 (0%)
7. Netscape 6.x 550159 (0%)
8. Netscape 5.x 345713 (0%)
9. Unknown 240220 (0%)
10. Netscape 3.x 40205 (0%)
11. MSIE 2.x 36243 (0%)
12. MSIE 3.x 32438 (0%)
13. Netscape 2.x 4449 (0%)
14. Netscape 1.x 124 (0%)
15. MSIE 1.x 104 (0%)
You cannot mandate productivity, you must provide the tools to let people become their best.
-Steve Jobs
admin@onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[mithrilhall]

Here's a few links for ya:

http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

http://www.design.ru/free/browsers/indexe.html

http://www.epistemelinks.com/Info/Browsers.asp

====================================
I love people. They taste just like
chicken!

 

[Wullie]

Hi All,

I suggest that you contribute to the following post which is discussing this exact issue.

thread717-314917

There are a lot of different views and some really good comments.

Hope this helps Wullie

sales@freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.searchit-now.co.uk

 

[GUJUm0deL]

LOL...here we go again...
This and "How can I hide my code" are the most asked and talked about forum topics...
I still stand by my belief, with newer and better technology comming out every other month (and a newer and better browoser available for free -- and yes, i'm aware that someone might have to pay for the shipping/handeling charge, or wait a few hours to d/l, etc...) why would any company want their site to be developed for old browsers?? Not only will that site being developed for old browser look horrible in old browsers, but in newer browsers it would look even worse. I mean, lest face it, in today's market looks sells (actualy its sex sells, but look and sex seem to go hand-in-hand)...alot of customers might get turned off by a website that looks like crap...they might think that the company doesn't really care about its appearance...
Some users here have noted that some companies might wanna target themselves for older browsers, NN4 browser mainly...my question is: why?? I have not failed; I merely found 100,000 different ways of not succeding...

 

[Wullie]

alot of customers might get turned off by a website that looks like crap...

A user visiting your "recent browser only" site will see a terrible looking site. A good designer can make a site degrade well for older browsers.

And, just to quote your recent post in another thread -

it might also be a good idea to check different browser versions...such as: NN4.75, NN6, NN7, IE5.5, IE6, OperaXX... LOL

Hope this helps Wullie

sales@freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.searchit-now.co.uk

 

[GUJUm0deL]

wullie, lol, just cause I believe that older browsers should be phased out, does not mean that others see my P.O.V...I posted this "...it might also be a good idea to check different browser versions...such as: NN4.75, NN6, NN7, IE5.5, IE6, OperaXX..." in the other thread cause I thought that would help the other user in his quest for becoming a good designer...
I also, when designing, check in older browsers...but I am not specificaly designing for older browsers...if my design looks decent or good in older browser then its great...if it looks not so good, I will look at what has to change in order for the site to look good in older browsers...if I have to change alot of things, I contact the client and tell them...then they make the call... if they want their site to look good in older browsers as well, and I have to redesign, then they will pay extra (alot)... I have not failed; I merely found 100,000 different ways of not succeding...

 

[isNaN]

Besides statistics I would probably look at other companies in the same (or similar) market and see what they are doing. If all your compition is supporting NN4xx or at least dregrading gracefully you might want to seriously consider doing the same thing.

regards,

jaxon