New to commercial cabling standards and possible legal standards

[totalkaos]

I have a wiring job at the end of this month with a 10,000 sq foot building for a company planning to move in. The walls are not yet up and the drop ceiling has not yet been dropped, so there is time for any installations necessary.

Before dry wall goes up, I want to put boxes in the walls next to studs. I figure I'll use plenum cable all around above the ceiling because (legally) isint that the best idea? I also plan on putting a rack mount and patch panel at the demarc. point.

Heres my question!!! I am not new to networking and cabling, however, I have never done a NEW install for a Commercial building.. Are there any standards and laws I have to watch out for or get certain items? I would like this job to be as neat and tidy as possible...

Thanks,
- Tom

 

[daronwilson]

Top of the heap is probably the Telecommunications Design and Distribution manual from BICSI. (

http://www.bicsi.org)

It's spendy and has way more than you need. I would suggest investing in the Telecommunications Cabling Installation book also by BICSI and published by McGraw Hill (

http://www.books.mcgraw-hill.com).

The EIA/TIA standards are a great reference though kind of spendy and not too easy to read. Keep in mind they are voluntary standards and not required by law to be implemented. For us in Oregon, we are required to be licensed by the state, pull an electrical permit, meet all the requirements of the National Electrical Code, and have the installation inspected when complete. There is a recent document jointly produced by BICSI and NECA that is a condensed version of the standards agreed on by those two groups.

Or you could always hire an RCDD to design it

Hope that helps! It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[totalkaos]

how might I become a RCDD?>

 

[josepablomir]

Maybe this info could look trivial, or maybe you already have it, but anyway, I have nothing better to do now.
First, you will need to use metallic data Slap-On roughing plates. Metallic because when the carpenters come to put the sheetrock they are not very tender. Slap-On because the wall is not yet there, so you can’t use the plastic support.
Yes, use Plenum wire. The stranned one is not the best to make the terminations in the patch boxes.
And don’t forget to use the yellow or gray bushing in the hole you are gonna make in the upper stud; here in NJ some electrical inspectors could reject the electrical roughing inspection because of this, even if the ones who did the electrical wiring are not the same who did the data wiring.
Remember not to put the data covers until the last day before of the final inspection; otherwise painters, electricians, or even carpenters could damage or scratch them, and you won’t like it.
If you want to make a very good job, at least near the telecommunications room, or server room, where you are going to locate patch panels, use flexible plastic conduit. It will give more strength to the wiring. And, of course, be sure the client see it!!!
If you are going to do your wiring before electricians and sprinkler guys are going to make theirs, go as higher as possible, and, with the plans at sight, try to anticipate sprinkler layout and electrical outlets final location. Believe me, you will not want sprinkler guys to “move” your wires, or the electrician pissed of because you use the only path to run the BX wire and opt to “gently” move your box and wiring, or put the outlet too far from the data box.
I hope it helps.

Regards,

_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[daronwilson]

RCDD's submit proof of design experience and letters of reference to BICSI and if approved are allowed to sit for an examination which covers the TDMM manual produced by BICSI. It is 2 - 3" binders and it is a ton of data. The tests are randomized so no two are alike. I forget how many questions, there is a time limit, and I understand the failure rate is about 70%. It covers the range from telephone cabling, data cabling, microwave, telecom rooms, automation, etc. There is information on the BICSI website regarding the RCDD.

I have no idea what "metallic data Slap-On roughing plates" are. I am guessing that might be a mud ring. If you want to do it cheap, just use a mud ring and pull the wire. A better solution would be a box and conduit to the space above the ceiling. It protects the wiring, and makes changes and additions easy.

The bushing for the "hole in the upper stud", I am guessing, assumes metal studs and the hole you may punch or drill in the top plate to bring the wires up. Absolutely, one would never want to run sensitive wiring through a metal hole that could cut through the jacket. There are snap in grommets for this purpose.

Wire choice should be solid, as suggested, (stranded is not approved for horizontal wiring, only patch cords). Just because there is a drop ceiling does not automatically make that area above the ceiling a plenum air space. A plenum space refers to the compartment used for air handling. Consult your local codes to see if you are required to use plenum wire in this circumstance.

I'm not familiar with the plan of using flexible plastic conduit to strengthen the wire. Keep in mind if you are dealing with a plenum space, any materials in that space would need to be plenum rated as well. Most plastic flexible conduit is not. Applicable codes and standards provide minimum support requirements for wiring.

I would suggest you place your wiring in after the other trades have done the plumbing and wiring. Very rarely do we win if there is a conflict between spaces since our cabling is 'lower priority' it seems.

Lots of options, I wish we could upload pictures here, many of the descriptions are confusing to me and a picture would be worth a thousand words.

Good Luck!


It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[wires]

This will never happen; "when the carpenters come to put the sheetrock" So you might as well wait for the standard time to put in the LV wiring.

Mechanicals usually go like this:

Plumbers, HVAC, Electrical, LV Electrical, Insulation, Drywall (done by sheetrockers or drywallers, the carpenters left a long time ago), Painters, Then everybody does their trim-out.

If you want to get screwed go out of turn...

Listen to Daron, he knows.

 

[josepablomir]

Some fine tune.
As Mr. Daron Wilson notes, “metallic data Slap-On roughing plates” are mud rings. I didn’t use the term “mud rings” because I believe it to be less clear. As a matter of fact, the term “mud ring” is often used to name different kind of plates (all metallic, and not all of them for LV wiring).
Again, I appreciate the translation from “bushing” to “snap in grommets”. Bushing is a more generic term.
About the flexible plastic conduit, yes it’s true, you have to check products against your local codes, but you will easily find different types well suited for your needs.
About the poor guy who has to put the “other” side of sheetrock in the wall (one side is usually already in place when data wiring start) you may call it sheetrockers or drywallers, but often they are part of the carpenter contractor team. So, which is the problem in calling them carpenters?
And the time line given (Plumbers, HVAC, Electrical, LV Electrical, Insulation, Drywall, and Painters) is nothing more than fictitious. In commercial buildings, the carpenters are the first in. Why? Because they have to do the new divisions and modifications to the rooms layouts. During this period (layout modification) plumbers, electricians and air conditioning guys are working in their owns schedules. Today, while finishing some electrical work in a new office in one Parsippany (NJ) building, the painters, sprinklers and ceiling guys where there doing their jobs. Final inspection is scheduled for Friday, and while some data wiring is already done (other company is doing LV wiring this time) we are still cutting walls and running pull strings to let the data people fish the final lines to the desktops.
If you need more data just ask for it.

Regards,
_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[daronwilson]

Thanks for your clarification, I dunno where you buy your products, but I can't find anything like "metallic data Slap-On roughing plates" in my electrical or datacom supply catalogs. Below are a couple links to the materials I am referring to, perhpas you can point us to the Slap-on roughing plates?

Mounting plates and rings are at

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/product/Static/TeleStudWallN.asp

Mud Rings are at

http://www.capeelectric.com/marion/gsacat/raco/rac4d.html

My 'translation' from bushing to grommet was not at all the issue. Call it what you want, the fact is you only need it in a metal stud. Which, as I tried to point out, when used as the top structural member of a wall it is known as the top plate. The studs are the vertical pieces, the horizontal members are the top and bottom plates. Oddly enough, the manufacturer calls this device a grommet. You can see the device for the hole at:

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/product/CADDYcfcMtlStdPnchSnpGrmmt.asp

As for the flexible conduit, please provide me a link what you are talking about. Carlon makes a flexible ENT conduit as well as innerducting, neither of which would make any sense to support the wiring. If you are referring to split loom automotive type tubing, it is not rated for electrical installation. The only time I have used or seen flex tubing in the data installation is either as innerduct for fiber optic cable protection, or if the building is piped with ENT. Anyway, I'm always willing to learn, point me to where the product is or better yet...send me a few pictures of your finished installations so I can see what you are referring to.

Now...much of this has me baffled:
About the poor guy who has to put the “other” side of sheetrock in the wall (one side is usually already in place when data wiring start) you may call it sheetrockers or drywallers, but often they are part of the carpenter contractor team. So, which is the problem in calling them carpenters?

I guess they really do things differently in NJ, but here, we have the carpenters frame the walls, then we go in and install all the conduit and wiring, then the insulators come in, and then, the drywallers. They arent the same as the carpenters, they have different jobs. Since when do they sheetrock one side of all the walls then call to have the electrical installed? Is that a NJ thing? I've never seen it done that way, enlighten me!

The common order of trades provided by wires is pretty standard from what I have seen. Depending on how the work is progressing of course. And yes, many times it is E & A work (elbows and a$$holes) with multiple trades working on top of each other. However, there is some logical order. You explain that during this layout period when the carpenters are in there, the plumbers and electricians are in doing their thing as well. Huh? If the walls are not done being built, where the heck do you put the wire and plumbing? If you are implying that there is some overlap, I completely understand. Many times I'm in there the same time as the plumbers and the HVAC guys. It's not my choice, it is harder to do the work and usually results in moves and changes to my layout.

Anyway, misinformation bothers me. I am always willing to learn a better way to do it, and so I would welcome some more information, pictures and links from you showing how you think it should be done. I too have real jobs, our company has 5 offices in the state and anywhere between 150-500 electricians/telecom technicians working at a time depending on the projects. Today I met with the owner remodeling the 21st floor of a 30 story building in Portland, OR to determine what the telecom needs are. The carpenters were done, nothing but bare metal studs and the electricians were putting up the mud rings for low voltage and running their MC cable for power. Hey! I could send you pictures!

Thanks!

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[alamtnman]

although it has been touched on briefly,just a reminder in our area some cities and counties require a low voltage permit some areas do not so check with the local gov. in most area the only requirement to pull a low voltage permit is a buisness license but there are some locations that require the electrical contractors license.definatly verify whether the cieling will be plenum rated or not ,you can save some cash with non-plenum cable but its best to use plenum to be save and dont forget the small stuff,make sure you use plenum rated tywraps and bushings above the cieling(if you plan a lot of moves and such i suggest the new plenum rated velcro tyewraps.) keep you cable as high as possible away from electrical lighting and conduit use good j hooks or bridle rings to mark your path way keep it staitght and neat and you should be fine.
as for the split flex some one mentioned earlier we use it to cover the cables from a wall/floor to the spine of a cube area for neatness and protection and panduit does make it along with a few others companys
thanks
Tim Roberts

 

[jeffmoss26]

I was working on a big cabling project a few weeks ago with my dad's work. We did all our cables long after that chart above specified. We had all our runs in conduit so we didnt need the walls open, though. While we were there, the painters were finishing up and the Alarm people had to pull their cable, which wasnt easy since they had to get up on lifts and stuff like that (they didnt get conduits) The electricians installed all the boxes for us too. jeff moss
jeffmoss26@adelphia.net

 

[josepablomir]

TO: Mr. Daron Wilson


Do you want to know what is the problem, in a data wiring forum question, about calling
carpenters, in general, to those who do the walls, without role distinction? Obviously, it is your need to talk about something. You need to create controversy to market yourself, but to do it right you need education.

I know, NJ and Oregon are not the same, some differences must exist, but again, your pretending words about being using exact terminology (when it’s clear you are not doing it), referencing only some catalogs (how can you tell so sure that there are no such a thing as bushings for metal studs), and stating extrictly the tasks that workers must do like if you are preparing yourself for a construction test, points clearly in one direction: inexperience.

I know what is happening here. You are a “catalog guy”. You respond to every situation based on catalog and standards, and when this is not in the air you are lost and need to put the ball down and translate the situation to your limited wisdom and experience. Well, let me tell you something, one thing is to be professional, (selecting the materials and procedures in the right way), but another, very different, is to be square.

If you expect that mentioning “between 150-500 electricians/telecom technicians working at a time depending on the projects” people will start reverencing let me show you the truth: You sound like a poor guy whose only strength is to belong to such a company; even if you own the company! (Morris Electric, maybe?)

With this attitude you better fill an application for Oracle Corporate Sales (if you know what I’m talking about).

To finish this, let me tell you that after my first posting in the question and your immediate reply some other user, named “wires”, write a Daron Wilson support message. This alone is not strange at all, but when I made my second comment, which was intended just to clarify the terms you intend to correct (with no second intention, and with no message between the lines), you respond in the wrong terms. And more strange of all, you take the banner of the “carpenters” task, which was a discussion topic initially started by this other user “wires”. This brings to my memory those support comments that the Royal Society made in Newton’s favor when him and Leibnitz were disputing the “integral and differential calculus” paternity. Do you know what I’m talking about no?

A final reflection, it seems to me that you take this forums as business, to sale yourself and your services (you say that in your first posting), but remember, this is not a fight for customers, so you should have a better mood.





_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[josepablomir]

FREE EDUCATION FOR MR. DARON WILSON!
(please, do not abuse, or I will charge you for it)


“METALLIC DATA SLAP-ON ROUGHING PLATES"

Lets analyze it: ”Metallic” because the material (not plastic). “data” just because we are talking about data wiring. “Slap-On” refers to the ones that have brackets (I know the term is more applicable to the boxes with side brackets, but we use it for any kind of bracketed box or plate). “roughing” is simply to reinforce the fact that the plate will be in place before the sheetrock wall will be closed (again the bracket thing), and the word “plates” I spouse don’t need additional explanation (not a box, a plate).
You could say what you want, but is rally hard to believe that you, with your experience (you seems to be an important professional in a big company with 5 offices and several hundreds installers) don’t understand this plain indication of “Metallic data Slap-On roughing plates”.

The mounting plates showed in your link to “ERICO” products includes one of these things, the “Low Voltage Mounting Bracket”. Let me tell you this is the only one in your link that is for roughing. I have used these models, as well as the MP1S “Low Voltage Mounting Plate” also from CADDY.

About the mud rings (or muddrings) let me tell you (but I’m sure you already know it, because you are a smart guy, I’m sure) there are different kinds, mostly for electrical applications, and they are intended for use in boxes. Of course, you can call mud ring to the low voltages plates above mentioned (like the MP1S) and if you do it I will not going to correct you, because I do not expect perfect definitions for every item you name, because all of us know that the names we use daily are not always 100% correct, but we understand each other. In the link to the Cape Electric site you put in your comment, do you know the term “mud ring” does not appear, nor even once?

What do you think will have more probability of success; send a new guy to the hardware store to buy one “mud ring” or to instruct him to ask for a “Metallic data Slap-On roughing plate”? If he comes with the mud ring you will have to send him again for the box, and maybe a third time to change it for a bracketed one (slap-on).











_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[josepablomir]

FREE EDUCATION FOR MR. DARON WILSON!
Part II


“BUSHINGS”

There are different kinds of bushings. They are intended for protecting wires from sharp metallic edges. For example when you buy a BX wire it comes with a small bag of bushings (some people call them “red-heads”). Other times, when you need to use Greenfield (the flexible metallic conduit similar to the external part of the BX wire), or Seal-Tight (this is the water resistant flexible metal conduit with plastic jacket) you need to use a bushing too (if you use the non-metal Seal-Tight you don’t need the bushing).

Bushings are used in the external thread of metallic connectors when you run data or telephone wires, and when you run individual wires inside a pipe ending in a connector.
And bushings are used to run data and telephone wires through studs to protect them.
I know you know that, because in one of your answers you state it.
But it seems you don’t know that using the word “bushing” is perfectly correct.
Please, refer to the Grenlee product 22288 (Cat. Num. 711C), which is named, in the bag as “Metal Stud Bushing”. I know them by this name, order them by this name, and never have founded anybody who didn’t understand what I was refereeing to when I ask or indicate a “metal stud bushing”.

Do you want to call them grommets? Right, no problem, but when I call them bushings please don’t forget you are a “big company guy” and you can not afford to be interpreted as a non-experienced or too tight person.

I assumed, and maybe I am wrong in this, that a 10000 sqt. Feet building should be remodeled with metal studs. Why? Well, they are cheaper, lighter, easier to work with and to carry on, and to be honest, I have never seeing commercial buildings with wood studs. But this could be because I am concentrated in the commercial sector of NJ; I admit that this could not be the same in other states. Maybe in Oregon, because a deficiency in the Earth gravitational field, the wood studs are lighter than metal ones.


_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[josepablomir]

FREE EDUCATION FOR MR. DARON WILSON!
Part III


“STUDS AND CARPENTERS”

Lets suppose that metal studs are the ones used in the building remodelation.

First, the carpenters make the framing.

Second, electricians do the electrical roughing.

Stop here. Many times, and I mean many many times, electricians start theirs roughing work before carpenters finish the framing. The same happens to plumbers. And is very common to find HVAC guys starting its job in this period (before carpenters finish framing). Why? I suppose because all of us want to finish as soon as possible to keep moving on.

When electricians do the data wiring, usually start it in this roughing period, using “metallic data slap-on roughing plates”, or slap-on boxes with muddrings and pipes above ceiling level. Some hybrid way to do it is to use just the “metallic data Slap-On roughing plate” and PVC flexible conduit to the end of wall level.

When carpenters finish framing, they start putting sheetrock only in one side of the internal walls. Yes, carpenters, usually the same guys and the same company. I admit sometimes other people do it, but this is not common. And yes, only one side, because they need to let the walls open to the roughing inspections. If HVAC and Sprinklers guys didn’t start yet, they begin now, and of course, always rushing.

Third, and after roughing inspections, insulation guys put the insulation (again, this many times is made for the same carpenters) and carpenters close the walls.

Four, electrical and data devices are installed. But carpenters didn’t finish yet; they are still doing the final touches, installing doors, etc.

So, maybe you big company, with hundreds of installers, never has seen a situation like that. But it seems to me a bit hard to believe. Different jobs, yes, it looks logical, but real situations are not always as they should be. Again, this makes me believe you haven’t got the field experience you are trying to sale.

And to finish. When you name the different roles for studs, you are defining them as studs. Is it clear?

_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[josepablomir]

FREE EDUCATION FOR MR. DARON WILSON!
Part IV


“FLEXIBLE CONDUITS”

Every time I see a big amount of data wires coming down the ceiling to the patch panel, with only some wire ties I use to think how do those data installers do to be so rough.

People spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in technology infrastructure, and pay tenths of thousands of dollars to those who made the wiring. The less you can do is to finish your work in a professional way. For your answer, I’ve seen you are one of those who didn’t care about it.

You must use PVC flexible conduit, or, metallic or non-metallic waterproof flexible conduits (with proper connectors and bushings) if you want to give a good impression. You will be surprised of the customer reaction when they see the conduit coming down the ceiling to the patch panel rack. Of course, you have to make them notice it. For your reference, and before you tell me that there is no such a thing, you can look at it at many manufacturers, but Electri-Flex has one blue metallic flexible conduit which has a very good look (about $ 1.5 per foot). But if don’t want to expend this huge (!?) amount of money (I suppose that after paying several hundreds installers the money that remains for material purchasing must be only a few dollars), you could make good use of the plastic one that Carlon (

http://www.carlon.com/search.html),

among others, offers.

Of course, if you want to use these conduits over the ceiling you need to consider when this space over is used for HVAC return path or not. But let me tell you some word of advice. Even if this is not the case, I always recommend using simple and bare Greenfield above the ceiling (again with proper bushings and connectors). Why? Just because of precaution.

And remember, you are working for your customer, not for the codes or government agencies (even if you are a member of the IEEE, like myself), so, who cares about the lack of support requirements that applicable codes and standards provide. The rules always talk about minimum requirements, but never state that you can’t use more support. Remember, client infrastructure depends on the quality of your work. Don’t be cheap!

_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[josepablomir]

TO: all the other people in this forum and Q&A


I'm sorry for my postings, which are directed to one person, but I feel necesary to show this person that his is not as smart as he think he is.

I'm sorry, and this won't happen again.

Regards,
_________________
Jose P. Mir
jpm@jpmir.net

 

[daronwilson]

And my appologies as well, I have certainly now been shown how utterly stupid I am. How in the world I managed to get an electricians license, RCDD, run my own telecom company for 10 years and now manage a telecom division is completely unbelievable. Now that I have had a member of the IEEE point out the error in my ways, I am off to search my catalogs for metalic slap-on roughing plates.

Thanks, Jose, you are my hero. It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[wires]

Whew!

Why is it that people from the NE corridor are SO MUCH SMARTER than the rest of us? If that attitude was not enough, some then demonstrate their obvious superiority with statements like "I feel necesary to show this person that his is not as smart as he think he is".

It isn't how many words you use but the words that you use.


BTW - I was at Graybar the other day and I asked for some "metallic data Slap-On roughing plates". All I got across the counter was a blank stare...

 

[daronwilson]

I'm still holding back my comments, which is tough because the free education I received in this thread doesn't match what I read in the standards and codes, nor does it reflect what I see in the field. However, if anyone needs the ANSI/NECA/BICSI standards I referred to, I can email them in pdf. They are a good place to start for accurate information.

Here is a small system with a freestanding rack, cable runway support, patchracks, switches, fiber and the like. Notice the conduits entering the room from the ceiling and emptying out onto the cable runway where the cable can be neatly made into a spare coil before termination. There is a flexible 1" PVC orange duct with the fiber in it which is wire tied to the cable runway and ends at the Light Interface Unit where spare fiber is coiled then terminated. Behind the data rack is telephone wiring terminated on 110 blocks on the left, some 66M blocks near the middle with the orange covers (this is the telco's demarc) and the former data terminations on 110 blocks further on the right.

I know it is a small system, but most of the larger ones I have pictures of are after we turned them over to the IT guys who aren't always as anal with the patch cables and velcro ties as I am

Potshots welcome.

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[wires]

Beautiful!

Nice job, nice pic. I don't think I have ever been that neat in my life!