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New Expert on the block
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big70
I haven't gone through the Cisco certs yet, I'm planning to start working on my CCNA next. Maybe that will change my outlook. My major basis of comparison was the levels of attainment, but here's some counter-points to your arguement:
* I know a bunch of guys who got their CCNA while in high school. Using your logic that a cable guy has his ACA, this kind of cheapens the CCNA no?
* You can walk into any Barnes and Noble bookstore and buy many different Cisco Certification books. Try doing that with Avaya's product. Sure you can download product documentation, but there isn't any type of freely available literature DESIGNED to prepare you for the exams, whereas with Cisco and Microsoft there are volumes available. This on the other hand also lends credence that those certs are more marketable in the real world...
* I dispute your description of the ACS as "easy". I failed it the first time I took it and have ready MANY posts indicating failures. And I probably have MORE exposure to the S-Series stuff than most techs (I'd ballpark that I personally setup about 30 S-Series switches last year).
* While I'm no Cisco expert yet, I have to believe there are MANY more flavors of the Avaya product, which also probably plays into the lower pass/fail. There is no way someone NOT working for a business partner could pass those exams, even WITH the lower pass/fail...
I haven't gone through the Cisco certs yet, I'm planning to start working on my CCNA next. Maybe that will change my outlook. My major basis of comparison was the levels of attainment, but here's some counter-points to your arguement:
* I know a bunch of guys who got their CCNA while in high school. Using your logic that a cable guy has his ACA, this kind of cheapens the CCNA no?
* You can walk into any Barnes and Noble bookstore and buy many different Cisco Certification books. Try doing that with Avaya's product. Sure you can download product documentation, but there isn't any type of freely available literature DESIGNED to prepare you for the exams, whereas with Cisco and Microsoft there are volumes available. This on the other hand also lends credence that those certs are more marketable in the real world...
* I dispute your description of the ACS as "easy". I failed it the first time I took it and have ready MANY posts indicating failures. And I probably have MORE exposure to the S-Series stuff than most techs (I'd ballpark that I personally setup about 30 S-Series switches last year).
* While I'm no Cisco expert yet, I have to believe there are MANY more flavors of the Avaya product, which also probably plays into the lower pass/fail. There is no way someone NOT working for a business partner could pass those exams, even WITH the lower pass/fail...
big70,
finally avaya realized that ace cert doesn't mean nothing, they're planning to tighten that program. starting in march this year, there will be several expert level certs requiring particular acs certs to be done, unlike current ace. i don't think it would help much but at least it's something. and considering that ipo ace now requires hand-on lab exam (!) i think avaya is moving in right direction. too slow as usual but still something.
it's a shame to have such an "expert" certification. local avaya guys are furious with it, when some "certified expert" guy from a business partner call them and ask stupid questions. i heard they considered canceling that program altogether but finally decided to make it harder.
well, i like that. it's kinda funny to acquire several "expert" papers instead of one. it will worth the same (zero) but still, it's fun.
finally avaya realized that ace cert doesn't mean nothing, they're planning to tighten that program. starting in march this year, there will be several expert level certs requiring particular acs certs to be done, unlike current ace. i don't think it would help much but at least it's something. and considering that ipo ace now requires hand-on lab exam (!) i think avaya is moving in right direction. too slow as usual but still something.
it's a shame to have such an "expert" certification. local avaya guys are furious with it, when some "certified expert" guy from a business partner call them and ask stupid questions. i heard they considered canceling that program altogether but finally decided to make it harder.
well, i like that. it's kinda funny to acquire several "expert" papers instead of one. it will worth the same (zero) but still, it's fun.
n25,
it isn't great to be an ACE, it's worth nothing. believe me, i got this cert two and a half years ago and it's just a meaningless piece of paper. it doesn't give you any respect and it doesn't mean you're a real expert, it just means you've spent a bit of time passing stupid avaya exams to get that meaningless "certification". big70 is right, i know he is because three years ago i've acquired cisco ccnp cert and THAT was REAL PITA to get, believe me. i had to pass four (!) exams to get one (!) cert and oh my those exams were hard, i had to sweat real hard to pass them. after that, passing avaya exams was like nothing compared to cisco's, a child's play. and expert level cisco exams are VERY VERY hard to pass, i know some people who tried many times and failed. in my previous company they hired a cisco guy (ccnp then) whose job was to became ccie. he did nothing but studied and tried and rehearsed for half an year, after that he did pass ccie exam but still he was saying it was pure luck he passed.
compare that to avaya "expert" and you'll see it's worth nothing.
it isn't great to be an ACE, it's worth nothing. believe me, i got this cert two and a half years ago and it's just a meaningless piece of paper. it doesn't give you any respect and it doesn't mean you're a real expert, it just means you've spent a bit of time passing stupid avaya exams to get that meaningless "certification". big70 is right, i know he is because three years ago i've acquired cisco ccnp cert and THAT was REAL PITA to get, believe me. i had to pass four (!) exams to get one (!) cert and oh my those exams were hard, i had to sweat real hard to pass them. after that, passing avaya exams was like nothing compared to cisco's, a child's play. and expert level cisco exams are VERY VERY hard to pass, i know some people who tried many times and failed. in my previous company they hired a cisco guy (ccnp then) whose job was to became ccie. he did nothing but studied and tried and rehearsed for half an year, after that he did pass ccie exam but still he was saying it was pure luck he passed.
compare that to avaya "expert" and you'll see it's worth nothing.
dwalin-
I wholeheartedly disagree with you on some levels, and agree on others.
The Avaya certs are not really recognized outside of the business partner realm, but there are some value applied to them, at least in my history. And I know when we have someone come in for an interview and they have an ACS that carries some cashe...and I know from speaking with others that this is the same at other business partners.
And I must add...should I feel rather dumb that I didn't pass my first ACS exam? I studied like hell, and I've had a LOT of exposure to different systems...but not enough exposure. I'd worked on G350, G700 and G650...never the G250.
What gateway was the major part of questioning? The G250.
I know the cisco certs, at private employeers, are more recognized...and that quite honestly is because the topics the certification covers is more customer centric. The Avaya certs are more provider centric.
So in closing, I don't see the ACS or ACE certifications as "nothing"....just maybe NOT as valuable as the cisco stuff in the enterprise world. But they DO have value to the business partner world.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you on some levels, and agree on others.
The Avaya certs are not really recognized outside of the business partner realm, but there are some value applied to them, at least in my history. And I know when we have someone come in for an interview and they have an ACS that carries some cashe...and I know from speaking with others that this is the same at other business partners.
And I must add...should I feel rather dumb that I didn't pass my first ACS exam? I studied like hell, and I've had a LOT of exposure to different systems...but not enough exposure. I'd worked on G350, G700 and G650...never the G250.
What gateway was the major part of questioning? The G250.
I know the cisco certs, at private employeers, are more recognized...and that quite honestly is because the topics the certification covers is more customer centric. The Avaya certs are more provider centric.
So in closing, I don't see the ACS or ACE certifications as "nothing"....just maybe NOT as valuable as the cisco stuff in the enterprise world. But they DO have value to the business partner world.
Hahahah easy guys.
We are just trying to explain that if you have ACS or ACE than its good for you but in the field it,s not helpfull.
90% of the problems i see in the field is related to network poblems.
So if you have ACS you are on the right track but if you have also CCNP (or any other good network kwnoledge) then your an expert and will solve most of the problems.
Don,t compare Avaya/Cisco just do both.
So feli with your ACE but look at other important stuff to that will really makes you important.
You will solve the sh**t of others.
Greets Peter
We are just trying to explain that if you have ACS or ACE than its good for you but in the field it,s not helpfull.
90% of the problems i see in the field is related to network poblems.
So if you have ACS you are on the right track but if you have also CCNP (or any other good network kwnoledge) then your an expert and will solve most of the problems.
Don,t compare Avaya/Cisco just do both.
So feli with your ACE but look at other important stuff to that will really makes you important.
You will solve the sh**t of others.
Greets Peter
sjforcum,
my opinion is my own opinion and vice versa. i don't insist on my vision of this problem.
two weeks ago we've interviewed an ACE guy and he honestly told us: his company asked him to become ACE because they needed it for BP authorization. so he passed ip office, ip telephony implement and ip telephony maintain and became ACE. that's a cool expert, you know...
huh. i've passed almost all my exams about four years ago. treated it as fun, tried exams on products i've never seen or even read before and passed. should i feel like genius about that? since then i didn't have to re-take any exam, when some cert is due to be renewed avaya sends me an e-mail stating that my cert was renewed automatically. dunno why, maybe they're scared of my powerful mind able to crack easily their hardest exams. i've never seen questions about g250 nor g350, when i took those exams there were only g700s. the fact that i didn't have to re-take any exam in four years (!) speak aloud itself.
the funniest thing is, avaya exams are wholly avaya-centric. i laughed aloud a lot when i saw questions not only meaningless outside of u.s. (global program, a-ha) but meaningless for anyone outside of avaya. can't remember exactly but it was real fun.
speaking about something-centric, why does anybody working for an avaya customer need these certs? a business partner need 'em for product authorization and other bells and whistles but having certified specialists on staff doesn't give an end user any benefits. it doesn't give more pay so why sweat?
my opinion is my own opinion and vice versa. i don't insist on my vision of this problem.
two weeks ago we've interviewed an ACE guy and he honestly told us: his company asked him to become ACE because they needed it for BP authorization. so he passed ip office, ip telephony implement and ip telephony maintain and became ACE. that's a cool expert, you know...
huh. i've passed almost all my exams about four years ago. treated it as fun, tried exams on products i've never seen or even read before and passed. should i feel like genius about that? since then i didn't have to re-take any exam, when some cert is due to be renewed avaya sends me an e-mail stating that my cert was renewed automatically. dunno why, maybe they're scared of my powerful mind able to crack easily their hardest exams. i've never seen questions about g250 nor g350, when i took those exams there were only g700s. the fact that i didn't have to re-take any exam in four years (!) speak aloud itself.
the funniest thing is, avaya exams are wholly avaya-centric. i laughed aloud a lot when i saw questions not only meaningless outside of u.s. (global program, a-ha) but meaningless for anyone outside of avaya. can't remember exactly but it was real fun.
speaking about something-centric, why does anybody working for an avaya customer need these certs? a business partner need 'em for product authorization and other bells and whistles but having certified specialists on staff doesn't give an end user any benefits. it doesn't give more pay so why sweat?
Sorry if it seems like I'm trying to preach. Just having a discussion. We're all entitled to our own opinions.
A couple of points:
A Certification, albeit Cisco, Avaya, Microsoft, etc will not necessarily HELP you when your shooting trouble. The certs are primarily a help for me in these two areas:
1) Looking for a job
2) When there is a difference of opinion on the correct way to do something.
With regards to the examples...I know there are people who just do the minimum ammount to pass a test. Heck I know people who never have worked on anything other than a desktop who when to "school" and got their MCSE. But the certs DO help you get noticed for interviews. That's all they SHOULD do is get you interviews....you still need to know your stuff and show it....
And getting the ACE is by no means the end of the road, at least for me. I'm now working on my CCNA with hopes of pursuing that farther.
A couple of points:
A Certification, albeit Cisco, Avaya, Microsoft, etc will not necessarily HELP you when your shooting trouble. The certs are primarily a help for me in these two areas:
1) Looking for a job
2) When there is a difference of opinion on the correct way to do something.
With regards to the examples...I know there are people who just do the minimum ammount to pass a test. Heck I know people who never have worked on anything other than a desktop who when to "school" and got their MCSE. But the certs DO help you get noticed for interviews. That's all they SHOULD do is get you interviews....you still need to know your stuff and show it....
And getting the ACE is by no means the end of the road, at least for me. I'm now working on my CCNA with hopes of pursuing that farther.
AintgottaClue
Technical User
Its Ok for you guys that have got your foot in the door at an AVAYA site .With or without an ACA/E but for the rest of us its like tryin to win the lottery. You cant get any experience on AVAYA without experience on Avaya and thats the bottom line! I'm from a Mitel background and I might aswell say I'm a taxi driver to any Avaya jobs cuz I aint gonna get an interview for it. So I'm looking at getting a cert in ACA but now I read that they're either sooo easy they dont mean nada or soo hard you got no way of getting them unless you have been doing 20 years of Avaya .
Whats other peoples opinion about getting into Avaya as a newbie???
Whats other peoples opinion about getting into Avaya as a newbie???
I work for one of the largest IT integrators in the world. They have CCIE's and Ace's coming out of the woodwork (Me included).
My 2c.
1 Point that was made above is very true. You can gain Cisco cert from any community college, bookstore or college/trade school in the US (I will not speak for europe et al).
Do not underestimate this. In our world of convergence we have a couple of very large players.
Cisco
Avaya
Nortel
Mitel
3 com etc etc
Of the ones mentioned above only one has readily avaialable boot camps (for non BP/employees) and study guides college courses etc that will help you pass the tests.
By default that makes it much more difficult for those trying to "converge" into anything but cisco.
As to the quality of the tests...Cisco tests are more difficult (shouldn't they be? the information and boot camps are everywhere). Avaya is trying to remedy this but it will take time.
Lastly a certification is not by any means a mark of real knowledge in any of these skill sets. There is absolutely NO SUBSTITUTION for XP and Inteligence. I have met CCIE's and ACES who do not know what they would need to know.
I have met non certified people who do.
A cert is only an indicator (Much like college) that a person can grasp a certain subset of knowledge.
They help you get a job, they will never help you keep a job. Only your actual skill set will do so.
My 2c.
1 Point that was made above is very true. You can gain Cisco cert from any community college, bookstore or college/trade school in the US (I will not speak for europe et al).
Do not underestimate this. In our world of convergence we have a couple of very large players.
Cisco
Avaya
Nortel
Mitel
3 com etc etc
Of the ones mentioned above only one has readily avaialable boot camps (for non BP/employees) and study guides college courses etc that will help you pass the tests.
By default that makes it much more difficult for those trying to "converge" into anything but cisco.
As to the quality of the tests...Cisco tests are more difficult (shouldn't they be? the information and boot camps are everywhere). Avaya is trying to remedy this but it will take time.
Lastly a certification is not by any means a mark of real knowledge in any of these skill sets. There is absolutely NO SUBSTITUTION for XP and Inteligence. I have met CCIE's and ACES who do not know what they would need to know.
I have met non certified people who do.
A cert is only an indicator (Much like college) that a person can grasp a certain subset of knowledge.
They help you get a job, they will never help you keep a job. Only your actual skill set will do so.
kva
IS-IT--Management
- Jul 11, 2001
- 57
By the way Avaya certification path after revamping at March hasn't become more complex. There is no more abstract ACE Technical, there is a lot of ACE in different areas, and you need three ACS to get ACE as formerly, but these ACS should be particular concerning certification area. And even in one area, IP Telephony, it became simpler - you need two ACS, ACSD & ACSI IP Telephony and a couple of web assesments about SIP to get ACE IP Telephony.
So I agree with dwalin - ACE costs nothing. Or be more precise it costs three VUE exams you need to pass for one ACA and two ACS - web assesments are free
So I agree with dwalin - ACE costs nothing. Or be more precise it costs three VUE exams you need to pass for one ACA and two ACS - web assesments are free
siriussatelliteradio
Programmer
I agree that certifications get your foot in the door for new jobs and may sway an employer to pick you over someone else who does not hold an equivalent certification or experience.
I would not say certifications are worth nothing. There is nothing wrong with obtaining something that shows your relative knowledge. I whole heartedly agree that there are some people out there who hold certifications but no absolutely nothing and thus will result in them losing their jobs.
I agree that Cisco Certifications are very much harder to obtain test wise, however they are easier to learn becaue you can buy Cisco press and be on your way. With Avaya it is more based of knowledge and experience and some of the lame courses they have that you can take.
I personally hold:
ACE-Technical
ACE-IP Telephony
ACE-Messaging
ACE-Implement Enterprise Solution Architect
CCNA- 89% =) Very Difficult
Juniper Networks Certified Specialist
And now working towards my MCSE.
With all that take the time to learn the work. Dont just go out and pass a test. Actually retain the knowledge because you will definately be on the spot when people come to you and ask you for questions on how to fix things. Troubleshooting is the hardest thing out there.
The Radio Revolution has begun....
I would not say certifications are worth nothing. There is nothing wrong with obtaining something that shows your relative knowledge. I whole heartedly agree that there are some people out there who hold certifications but no absolutely nothing and thus will result in them losing their jobs.
I agree that Cisco Certifications are very much harder to obtain test wise, however they are easier to learn becaue you can buy Cisco press and be on your way. With Avaya it is more based of knowledge and experience and some of the lame courses they have that you can take.
I personally hold:
ACE-Technical
ACE-IP Telephony
ACE-Messaging
ACE-Implement Enterprise Solution Architect
CCNA- 89% =) Very Difficult
Juniper Networks Certified Specialist
And now working towards my MCSE.
With all that take the time to learn the work. Dont just go out and pass a test. Actually retain the knowledge because you will definately be on the spot when people come to you and ask you for questions on how to fix things. Troubleshooting is the hardest thing out there.
The Radio Revolution has begun....
I have been reading posts for quite some time on the subject of certification. I know that if I had my certs, I would have been able to find a job a little faster, and I think that it would have been for more money. I did end up some place that I really wanted to be, so the money was not the big thing. I have been working on Avaya equipment now for almost 8 years. I started on V6, and I have experience on many versions all the way up to CM3.1 and I am in the design phase for a CM4 upgrade right now. I plan to get my certs this year, but I am waiting to talk to Avaya University at the InAAU Conference. I want to get at least my ACS, and possibly an ACE. I also plan on getting at least a CCNA along the way. For those that are still reading this post, any other suggestions for someone like me is very much appreciated. I also want to thank those that participate in this forum. I know that it has been very helpful to many. We all have different experiences, and this is a great way to share those experiences to the benefit of all.
gblucas
gblucas
Hi all!
In answer to the earlier question about how many ACE's there are out there and soneone saying that the number apears on the certificate...this number s notvalid cos it's a running total and not the total number of currntly vlaid ACE's. Don't foget...they expire! There are just over 5400 ACE's in the UK and one on every street in the US!
Just got my 3rd ACE! ;-)
In answer to the earlier question about how many ACE's there are out there and soneone saying that the number apears on the certificate...this number s notvalid cos it's a running total and not the total number of currntly vlaid ACE's. Don't foget...they expire! There are just over 5400 ACE's in the UK and one on every street in the US!
Just got my 3rd ACE! ;-)
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