New construction gone bad 5

[mikeydidit]

Good morning all. I have a problem that I would like some help with. I have several new buildings that are under construction as we speak. One of them the specifications called for the installation of cat 5. Take for granted these specs were done around 4 years ago. I now have this building coming up and cat 5 is being installed. I know that the latest 568B specifies the use of at least cat5E but the contractor is doing what has been has been bid out from the architects and is correct. I believe that I have remedied this from happening again by not including any wiring on these new projects. I can use a contactor to do the wiring and use the latest standards. My question is, Should I use the cat 5 that is being installed or should I pull in cat5E after they have left their project? I am estimating around 600 pulls would be needed. My initial thoughts are to use the cat5 they have in place for personal computers and pull 5E for the ones that have been left out. This would be for the wireless antennas, and several other systems that would need cabling done that were left out of the project.
As always thanks for your valued input.



Mikey

 

[svhtech]

I think you'd be nuts to let them continue putting in CAT5 when CAT5E is now the minimum standard. Even if some "EXTRAS" are invovled it will be less expensive in the long run. How can you cable a building with four year old specs? Are you going to put in 333MHz. CPU's also ? Is this a U.S. Gov. job ?
I hope you can get this solved before it becomes a bigger headache down the road.... JB

 

[skip555]

IF you can't get them to run 5e I would try to use the 5 rather than pulling it out and replacing it with 5e

are you shure they are actually pulling 5 rather than 5e have you been on site and looked at thr cable ?

I would expect any competant cableing company to use 5e rather than 5

can you bypass the contractor and go directly to the sub who is pulling the cable and offer to pay him the upcharge?

 

[mikeydidit]

Unfortunately I am stuck guys. The sub is pulling what the specs call for. On most of the construction that it done here, the subs will ask me what is needed. These guys are in the fire alarm business, so as for them using what it up to code. NO. The cables are already pulled. I do have a feeling that they are in for it when it comes to testing. The only thing that I can do is change how it is done from here out. I sent my director something last week asking that no cabling be included in any other construction from this point on. I am not sure if he can even swing that. I am hoping for the best. I made the same suggestions about 2 years ago and nothing happened.

Welcome to my live guys…..

Any other input is welcome.



Mikey

 

[daronwilson]

Well don't feel alone Mikey, what you are describing is a continuing battle for those of us in the business. I can't count the amount of times I have BEGGED to the architect to include the EIA/TIA standards, I've even offered (for free) to provide them with sample specs, electronically, that they just dump in their spec book (like they do for every other section) but no. IMHO, the architect should be required to carry tools and work in each trade for a minimum amount of time before ever being allowed to run a pencil (or mouse) on prints.

Oh well, you got stuck by the people you work for. They PAID someone to design it wrong. Go figure....I could do bad design work AND get paid for it?? I should become an architect!

Good Luck, may the force be with you.


It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[buitenhek]

Dear Mikey,
Since you didn't mention high speed requirements or lots of CAD file transfers in your question, I would not replace the cable. However, any new cable should be CAT5e. Also, if financially practical, run a few CAT6 or CAT7 cables to strategic locations to enable future high speed lines to net switches... a thought only.

I have designed a few software packages for bidding cabling and just plugging in 600 locations (1V/1D) at 152 average length equates to $21,992.36 (based on a 36.2% GPM) installed/tested/documented. That equates to allotta kick-around money looking for alternatives.

Since 5e is the standard, today, try to add a "not manufactured before" date to the next cable specification. Therefore, since most cable manufacturers are running 5e, it would be harder to get older CAT5 cable (and likely more costly). It would also prevent the possible cable box/reel sitting in the garage for 5 years syndrome.
Regards,
Peter

 

[daronwilson]

I wouldn't spend money on "cat7" cable, since there isn't any standard to support it. If you want to be forward thinking between switches, at a minimum provide a raceway between the locations, and if you want to be ready pull in fiber.

I'm not sure what your software package is, but 600 drops for $22k comes out to $36.00 a drop. Now assuming very cheap components; 2 jacks, 1 faceplate, 300' wire, supports, two patch panel ports, etc. I figure I could buy all the parts for about $20 per drop. That leaves $16 for labor to install 300' of wire, terminate both ends, test and document. I'm not sure what your labor rate is, but wow, if you can install for this I'll sub all my stuff to you.

I would figure this type of a job at about $200 a drop, depending on construction type, wire/hardware type and a few other factors.

If you can get close enough to developing specs, it would be helpful to put in some qualifications for the installers as well. We encourage customers to require product line certification (Panduit, Ortronics, Leviton, etc.) for whatever products they are purchasing. Also, the installing company should have a proven track record of similar sized jobs.



It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[3rc]

Mikey ,It would be my bet since this is an alarm company doing the install ,it would not pass 5 year old specs.

 

[buitenhek]

I appreciate the sub offer but my contract weasel clause protects me from financial flimflam. I have seen several bids that quote this low rate and boast that GPM. In SOCAL area one company name rhymes with Mabel and the other sounds like an electrical shock. Check with them. Frankly, I know how they do it but I am not a supporter of that methodology. More power to them since both parties seem to win. In that vain, I don’t know what rate Mikey was quoted; if they install cable hangers or even actually test since they have forgotten several locations.

However, using my standard inputs, I calculate the cost at ~$60/drop and the sell price at $95 making the extended sell in the $56,481 - $59,408 range which is much more in line with your comments. Total time to calculate cost/sell price: <1 minute. Total time to write the software: 2 years.

Typical
600 VD (1 Voice and 1 Data)
Cost Each $59.48 Sell Each $94.13 Extended Sell $56,480.58

Actual
Count Horizontal Material
91,200 CAT3 Voice Cable Length (in feet)
Cost $3,648.00 Sell $5,107.20
91,200 CAT5 Data Cable Length (in feet)
Cost $4,560.00 Sell $6,384.00
600 CAT3 Voice Jack Count (one side)
Cost $1,770.00 Sell $2,478.00
600 CAT5 Data Jack Count (one side)
Cost $2,370.00 Sell $3,318.00
862 Copper Cable Hanger Count
Cost $1,810.20 Sell $2,534.28
600 Faceplate Cost
Cost $1,014.00 Sell $1,419.60
783.1 Total Calculated Labor Hours
Cost $20,517.22 Sell $35,239.50
1 3 Horizontal Voice Cable 110-Blocks (3-900pr)
Cost $456.00 Sell $638.40
1 7 Horizontal Data Cable Patch Panel(s) with CAT5 Jacks (6-96, 1-24)
Cost $1,635.00 Sell $2,289.00

Total All Cost $37,780.42
Total All Sell $59,407.98
Profit Dollars $21,627.56
Total GPM 36.4%
Total ROI 57.2%

The above format was changed from actual to display on this forum board. I apologize for transpositions, if any.

 

[rpearson]

Hey I could use some more of this advice on bidding,quotes etc!

 

[mikeydidit]

Daren is right on the money. Several years ago I did a technical wiring spec sheet for our campus to try to avoid this from happening (AGAIN). It specifies cables to be used, jacks, and patch panels with the manufactures part numbers. It goes as far to say that any substitutions will have to be approved through our office. This was not included in the bid process for these buildings. The closets are even worse. I have also requested that the closets and cabling infrastructure be designed by a RCDD to avoid these types of problems. It seems that we have to pay twice to have something done correctly here. I will use the cat5 for most applications and upgrade the cables to 5E in places that experience problems.

Thanks again guys.



Mikey

 

[daronwilson]

buitenhek,

It looks some what more feasable when you show the actual dollar amount. Your first post sounded like all that work was installed/tested/documented for $22k.

I am sure labor rates will vary, as will requirements. For me, all the installers are licensed, we are bonded/insured, installers are manufacturer certified, get +/- $20 an hour plus retirement and health benefits, etc. My labor costs may be a bit higher.

One thing that stands out to me is that you don't have enough labor hours in the job, IMHO. I have things broken down into hours for each component in software, then assemble them into assemblies then multiply it by the assembly. In breaking yours down, it looks like about 1hr 18 minutes per 'assembly'.

When I run the numbers, I then sit back and think about what each assembly requires. If I were doing one, I would get the wire in position, put up some J hooks, make conduit penetrations through firewalls if needed, label the cable, pull it 150 feet, fish it into the conduit at the workstation end, install two modular jacks on the wire, put on the faceplate, print a label and stick it on there, secure the service loop; Then at the other end the cable is routed into the patch panel, may have to build a patch rack, wire ladder, supports, grounding, etc., labeled, punched down on the patch rack. Then of course I have to break out the tester, put the remote at the other end, test the channel, swap to the second run and do it again, save and print the results. Update the CAD drawing with the wire/jack numbers, pick up the boxes and move them to the next spot, etc.

Generally when I think of it that way, I see that it likely won't be accomplished in 1.3 hours. While it sometimes feels like I could pull up in front, run in and knock that out in that time, I know the crew won't have that 'enthusiasm' for 600 drops. More than likely, it will take something like 2 to 2.5 hours if nothing gets in the way.

Yes of course some times decrease as you do some bulk work. You put up one row of J hooks and you pull 20 cables in there and fan them out at each drop. Some other times increase, and you still have to get product and tools there, move them around, answer questions, wait on other trades to finish areas, etc.

No matter how you cut it, you have to get the product there, shuffled around, unboxed, tested, documentation printed, and drawings produced. All this takes time and I have learned that if you fail to account for that time in the bid process, you might very well have to eat that time.

I'm sure everyone has a different method, we use Bidtek software for larger jobs, I something this size, I use a spreadsheet that I built. It has most of the common materials as well as the already defined labor per item and then it just runs the totals out and gives you a number we would normally refer to as the raw costs. Many of my bids get lumped into a big electrical project, and depending on the specificiations we may have to show the NECA (national electrical contractors association) published labor rates (per unit labor for each item that has been nationally accepted).

Many ways to look at it, and your local market will decide for you how agressive you can get. But it always helps to see how others figure their costs.

Good Luck!

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[buitenhek]

Dear Daron,

All very good points. I have enjoyed reading many of your insights into various installation situations. I would be happy to send you a free demo copy of one of my packages (CablePro) for your evaluation. No obligation.

I have tried to take out the seat-of-the-pants approach to bidding and tracking projects by standardizing these processes. For six years straight my division had the highest EBIT (earnings B4 interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization)using these packages. A short article can be found about the BidPro package in Cabling Business Magazine (May 2003).

Regards,
Peter Buitenhek

 

[deputymaytag]

I NEED TO KNOW ALL THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CAT-5 ,CAT-5E, CAT-6, CAT-7 OR ANY HIGHER THAN THESE, WHAT ARE THEY INDIVIDUALLY APPLIED FOR?

 

[Servamatic]

Cat 5 works for 10BaseT and 100BaseT, it uses 2 pairs for this data transmission.
Cat 5 is no longer recognized by the standards for data installations, Cat 5e is the minimum recommended.
Cat 5e is good for 1000BaseT as well as those for Cat 5; the big difference is that Cat 5e uses ALL 4 pairs to transmit 1000BaseT aka Gigabit Ethernet. This is why additional tests are required to ensure performance.
Cat 6 is also 1000BaseT but has quite a bit more headroom than does Cat 5e.
Cat 7 is a shielded and screened solution, which is no where near being ratified as a standard, so it is a bit premature to discuss what it is just yet.


Richard S. Anderson, RCDD

http://www.servamatic.net