Naming & Shaming - Ethical & Legal Stance

[SGTRawlins]

Good Day Lades and Gents,

Recently my company hired a consultancy firm for the design and implementation of a multi-site network infrastructure.

The original contract plan was for a 2-day implementation involving 2 of their consultants and 2 of my staff, We are now 6 months after the expected closure date for the project and they have currently spent nearly 40 consultancy days attempting to complete the implementation.

The issues they have experienced lie solely on there poor communication of their staff and management.

This firm is very successful and very well know, I believe that it would be very interesting for other IT professional from around the world to hear of the fiasco surrounding this case.

So, my question to you is; what is the "Ethical & Legal" stance of "Naming & Shaming" this firm in a widely viewed media such as Computer Weekly Magazine?

Don't get me wrong, this is not devised as a revenge attack, the article mentioning would be a well structured article discussing the role of suppliers as project managers and simply "name dropping" as a case study.

Thanks in advance for all your comments.

Robo

 

[Dollie]

Criminal background checks have been standard for years and years.

For ages, employers have depended on human resources departments to conduct reference checks on past employment. But when you're depending on someone to tell the truth on a resume, you are still limited to what you can truly learn.

I'm not sure where you're getting your background checks, but since employment records are tied to tax, social security and unemployment records, I'd find it unlikely that a private background check company has legal access to that information. Even if it did, it can only tell me where they worked and how much they made. I may be wrong. The company I deal with directly does criminal checks, in and out of state, in and out of the country. If I want employment records, I have to depend on the consultant to provide me with a reliable history that I can follow with valid references that I can speak to.

 

[Dimandja]

So, what do you suggest? To create a TarAndFeathers website where we can go hang consultants we disagree with?

Take the current thread example: we don't really know the whole story; except what one party has told us.

I think the only recourse at this moment is for this company to take legal action - which they apparently have already taken by exercizing their right to withhold payment. I don't see what else can be done fairly here.

Dimandja

 

[Dollie]

It's the same problem we encounter when hiring someone. How do we know that person has behaved ethically in their last consulting position? How do we know that the person can actually do what they say they can? Time after time, we have had to learn the hard way like SGTRawlins has... after the fact. It's not just disagreeing with someone in many cases, it's the fact that the person lied or overexaggerated their skills.

Consultants, or subcontractors, are not protected by employment laws, but they are bound by a contract. Because of this, many feel they are not required to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth as long as they keep receiving a check. To me, that makes them as culpable as a company, and in fairness, we should be able to complain to someone or something about them the same way we can complain about a corporation. It'll probably never happen, but it'd still be nice to have.

Hrm....tarandfeathers.com..... heh

 

[ANFPS26]

Why can't you sue this lousy consulting company for shoddy work and breach of contract??

Jim

 

[MDXer]

It's the same problem we encounter when hiring someone. How do we know that person has behaved ethically in their last consulting position? How do we know that the person can actually do what they say they can?

The answer is easy...

References. Many companies do detailed reference checks of employees but take a consultant at face value. A good consultant should be able to provide a List of credible references from prior enagements. References from COO or VP Of Development in my opinion are a must for a good consultant. Being a consultant is a business and any good business needs to be able to backup its claims. I walked into my last consultant gig with COO and VP level references that I encouraged my client to contact. I left that contract with 2 more VP references. If it is a consulting company being hired you should ask for a client list and contact companies from that list. In my opinion a company should spend more time interviewing and selecting a consultant than they do an employee. An employee has some intrest in the companies success or failure, company fails they are out of a job. A consultant on the other hand while wanting to see and assist their client succeed has no real tie to the companies success, they finish the contract and move on to the next.

As for Robo's situation like most I have experienced the frustrations of simillar situations. A big factor could be is it a Time and Materials contract or Fixed Price.

If it is Time and Materials and you are in position have it changed to Fixed price. I was with a company that did this to a very prominent company. After 9 months we forced them into a fixed price contract. We would provide a list of tasks we needed completed the next month. This was provided halfway through each month they would then respond with time estimates that we reviewed and then we modified time estimates this happened till an agreed upon list was reached. I know this sounds like a pain but we accomplished more in 9 weeks than we had the previous 9 months. If it is already fixed price then start having it enforced. If you point of contact is an account manager go over them. Keep climbing the ladder even it requires you going to the President or CEO of a company. You can scream and yell at the wrong people and it will result in othing where a few words to the right person will have immediate and visible impact. If not terminate the contract go in house or find a new consultant. Pay the old company what you see they deserve say you know they did X hours of work and the going rate is X dollars an hour. Then if the try to sue you can show that you did pay for the work you believed they did and were entitled too. Just outright breaking a contract can lead to a huge mess.

"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck

 

[EBGreen]

Many companies will only allow employees to give references that confirm that the person did work for the company between date x and date y. There have been too many lawsuits both by people looking for a job (their old employer gives them a bad reference and they sue for libel or slander) and by companies that have request references (the prospective employee is given a shining reference but really screws up something in the new company so they sue for damages).

[blue]"Well, once again my friend, we find that science is a two headed beast. One head is nice, it gives us aspirin and other modern conveniences,...but the other head of science is BAD! Oh, beware the other head of science, Arthur; it bites!!" - The Tick[/blue]

 

[SGTRawlins]

This stuff is "Gold" chapps, keep it comming,

The entire case is fully documented from tart to finish, i am currently working on ammedning the document to remove identities then i will get a copy on the forum for you all too see. i may have a digital version of the contract somewhere i can post.

Cheers Guys, Robo

 

[Dollie]

<giggle> Tart to finish?

I hate to say it, but I've dealt with that more than I've dealt with someone not completing their job!

When checking references on potential employees there are legally only 3 questions that can be asked: 1. Did this person work in the capacity they claim? (ie. Were they really VP?) 2. Did they work during this time period and make this amount of money? 3. Would you rehire them? The third question is the kicker and can say quite a bit, even though it is just a yes or no answer.

With subcontractors you can usually ask more questions, but you are also depending on the person on the other end of the phone being who they say they are. Fake references are more common than most would like to think. Many times I've spoken to what ended up being a spouse, friend, or former co-worker that wasn't a supervisor.

As far as exposing this company and actually naming names, I don't see what damage it would cause if there were a few factors thrown in, such as you not working for the company anymore (and not at risk of losing your job) or if you are in a high level position within the company and have the ability to defend yourself. To do it out of retribution after a resolution has been made wouldn't be ethical (although it'd probably feel really good to do). If the company fails to resolve the issue, still demands payment and continues to perpetuate the problems while refusing to admit any mistakes and cancel their contract.... well, I say have at 'em.

Frankly, I'd like to know if the consultant or consulting firm I'm dealing with can do the job or not, and how they've performed in the past.

Keep us updated Sarge. This is really interesting and I'd like to see how it comes out!

 

[Dimandja]

Fake references are more common than most would like to think.

That's why there are professionals who specialize in background checks. I don't expect a regular programmer or even many HR personnel to be good at checking references.

If you are wronged by a consultant, get it straightened out through your contractual agreements or judicial recourse. If you want blood or vindictiveness, that's another story altogether.

Dimandja

 

[Dollie]

PLEASE give me the name of someone who can check more than a criminal background. We really need that. Every company in the nation needs that. I'm hoping it's someone other than a skip tracer!

 

[Dimandja]

Dollie,

Come on, there many companies who do nothing but reference checking. And yes, they have 'ways' of going beyond the 3 moronic questions you mentioned.

Google this: Employee Reference Check Services

 

[ANFPS26]

Dimandja, I think you are somewhat naive. The last company I worked for did a background check on me when I hired on. They used an " Employee Reference Check Service" and sent me a copy of the report. The report wasn't even done on ME. The social security number and date of birth were both wrong. I tried to get it straightened out, but the company didn't care and hired me anyway on someone else's background check. I wouldn't bet the farm on a "background check".

Jim

 

[Dollie]

This could be an endless debate and isn't helping Sarge at all. Most of the reference check companies that came up were for job seekers or people worried about what their references will say, only a few were for employers. A few of those seem questionable, but a couple could be worthwhile to smaller companies.

The questions may seem moronic to you, but they are what is legal. We like to keep things legal, ethical and above board where I work (to be specific, a large consulting firm specializing in IT). It's just easier that way. We have several professionals in HR who do a great job to begin with, and most of the time they are able to sort out who's telling the truth and who's not.

There are a few who still slip past and we end up in a situation like Sarge's. I don't know what happens to those few, but I would hope they don't move on and continue to perpetuate the myth that they can do the job they said they could.

I'm not disagreeing with you or trying to start an argument, but I've learned quite a bit about employment law and was just attempting to help. I've passed this thread on to a few people in HR to get their opinions on it as well. Maybe one of them can help Sarge out in his situation.

 

[MDXer]

I would like to see the law that makes these 3 the only legal questions. Are they 3 very safe questions that you can garuntee answers from? yes. They are also 3 questions that many companies have made it policy to be the only questions answered. I seriously doubt and would like to see where the courts have defined legal questions when asking for references. If you are comming from a good situation as I have the people will volunteer more than asked. I had a former manager answer a reference check for me that was approx 15 minutes. Some companies are starting to send out confidential reference checks. I saw one 2 weeks ago. In it the applicant agrees to waive any liability for the company asking for and giving the reference check. They also agree that they give up the right to even see these reference checks. The reference is done in writing on what looks like a triplicate form, with 1 copy for each party.

&quot;Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!&quot;
- Daffy Duck

 

[monkeylizard]

ANFPS26 said "Why can't you sue this lousy consulting company for shoddy work and breach of contract?? "

Does the contract specify the 2-days, 2-consultants? If so, I'd be contacting a contract attorney. Not only has your company been screwed on the soaring cost of this project, but on the lost time of system use. It was supposed to be up in 2 days and you're what, a few weeks past that?

Even if you never sue, a lawyer knocking on their door can have an uncanny way of getting your project done.

Monkeylizard
-Isaiah 35-

 

[SGTRawlins]

I think the issue we are having with the contract is that they state under thier charges for 2 days consultantcy but it doesnt limit them to 2 days, we just dont pay them for more.

 

[MDXer]

One action to take would to bring it in house or go to another company and then charge back any additional costs to what is clearly a redo of what they had done. I don't think smearing their reputation is going to get you much. Even very large and respected companies have some who fail to perform, unfortunately you seemed to get them this time round. What does the account manager say? Do they have a PM to go to. Like I said previously I would start yelling my way up the management chain.

&quot;Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!&quot;
- Daffy Duck