LadySlinger
IS-IT--Management
The talent is being able to do all of that in a 40 hour week. 
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My view of IT career Opportunity looking at the Bureau of Labor Stats. 2
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langleymass
MIS
The talent is knowing "how to play the game." If you know how to, you will suceed. Most learning in this field takes place on the job. Therefore, you need to be able to get those kinds of learning opportunities. And with all the job-changing, etc., your ability to play the game is also critical.
I have worked in other industries with less drama and with less politics. I am good at the work I do, but that is absolutely meaningless. The ironic thing is that the kind of people who choose technical careers have mainly done so because they hope that they can avoid the politics and drama.
You also bring up an interesting point as well, BocaBurger. It is not unusual for a want ad to list requirements that can not be met by anyone. An example is: "Wanted: 5 years experience with Windows 2003."
Most people who are smart enough to do this work are also smart enough to find a place where this drama does not exist.
My point about Whole Foods earlier was simply this: IT is full of bad employers and bad managers. A bad manager is anyone who wants you to work more than 45 hours a week. This is why many have decided that it is easier to change careers than it is to find a good employer in IT.
My best employer in IT was not a technical company at all. It was the local office of Big Brothers Big Sisters, where I spent two years as the sole "technical specialist." I did just about all the IT work. I had excellent, competent, professional management. I was fortunate to work with great people and was proud of where I worked. Success and failure in the agency truly was based on how hard a person worked and what they were able to contribute.
I did leave after two years because I wanted to move to Austin and was also hoping to find a job with more growth.
I have worked in other industries with less drama and with less politics. I am good at the work I do, but that is absolutely meaningless. The ironic thing is that the kind of people who choose technical careers have mainly done so because they hope that they can avoid the politics and drama.
You also bring up an interesting point as well, BocaBurger. It is not unusual for a want ad to list requirements that can not be met by anyone. An example is: "Wanted: 5 years experience with Windows 2003."
Most people who are smart enough to do this work are also smart enough to find a place where this drama does not exist.
My point about Whole Foods earlier was simply this: IT is full of bad employers and bad managers. A bad manager is anyone who wants you to work more than 45 hours a week. This is why many have decided that it is easier to change careers than it is to find a good employer in IT.
My best employer in IT was not a technical company at all. It was the local office of Big Brothers Big Sisters, where I spent two years as the sole "technical specialist." I did just about all the IT work. I had excellent, competent, professional management. I was fortunate to work with great people and was proud of where I worked. Success and failure in the agency truly was based on how hard a person worked and what they were able to contribute.
I did leave after two years because I wanted to move to Austin and was also hoping to find a job with more growth.
Bull.
I didn't choose IT because I was hoping to avoid politics and drama. Nobody I have ever met who works in IT has worked in the field to avoid politics and drama.
Every field has office politics. It is inescapable as long as people are involved.
Also, the definition of game is: activity engaged in for diversion or amusement. A better word would be tactic: a procedure or strategy for gaining an end.
- Thread starter
- #24
People do not choose IT because they thought there wouldn’t be politics. Certainly not people who understand the working world. As KHZ says, politics exist everywhere and at every level. Why? Because I got involved, you got involved, khz got involved, etc. We all have our own objectives, biases, and interest. And sadly but realistically we are all selfish at some level.
The challenge to overcoming office politics is place the organization’s goals as paramount, work to be up front and direct with people, and always question your value proposition.
Claiming that IT is full of bad employees and bad managers, it is itself a politically charged statement – certainly one I could never concur with. There are no more bad or good professionals in IT than there are in any other field. It is just another profession.
To indicate that being good at what you do is absolutely meaningless is also political. And it is patently false. You’re implying the standard, “I’m the victim of greedy management/corporations.” Suggesting that managers do not want to find talent and do not want people to excel is silly.
Are there bad managers? Sure, just like there are bad employees. I would suggest, however, that most who get ahead do so because they provided some value and were effective at working with the team. That is a valuable trait; more valuable than simply being technically good at something. Or as I tell my children, it is more important to be effective than it is to be good.
But I’ve covered this topic and the pervasive & destructive negative attitude on many occasions. What is funny – in an interesting way – is that I sometimes get the “Yeah, well you’ve never had anything bad happen,” response. To which I can only say, please do not assume that I – or other people who maintain a positive, upbeat, proactive, and content outlook on life – have not and are not dealing with death, family issues, disease, stress, etc. It is wildly presumptuous.
The only difference in my case is that I view such things as par the course – they are the normal, if not sometimes tragic, events of life – just like economic fluctuations and draughts in Arizona. They come, they go, you deal with them as best you can and keep moving.
To that end, here are some blog entries written over the past year or so about negative versus positive perspectives…
The Man Is Trying To Keep Me Down
Economy of One & The Cult of the Disenfranchised
Corporations are Evil!! – Whaaaa!!
My Rose Colored Glasses: Realistic, Optimistic, and Proactive
I’ll state it again, there is great opportunity in IT and it is going to increase for several years. I am not manipulating numbers when I pointed to the BLS stats. I simply sorted what was there in a way that demonstrates a better example of true opportunity.
I met with an IT director (very large organization) recently who told me that his biggest problem was finding qualified talent. He explained that the salaries are rising very quickly and the available talent just didn’t exist. Outsourcing, offshoring, and the current number of students in the field will not remedy that.
Your perception of the field, your pursuit of value, your technical talent, and good business and communication skills will dictate your success in IT or any other field. It isn’t an either/or but a both/and proposition.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Career Blog: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
The challenge to overcoming office politics is place the organization’s goals as paramount, work to be up front and direct with people, and always question your value proposition.
Claiming that IT is full of bad employees and bad managers, it is itself a politically charged statement – certainly one I could never concur with. There are no more bad or good professionals in IT than there are in any other field. It is just another profession.
To indicate that being good at what you do is absolutely meaningless is also political. And it is patently false. You’re implying the standard, “I’m the victim of greedy management/corporations.” Suggesting that managers do not want to find talent and do not want people to excel is silly.
Are there bad managers? Sure, just like there are bad employees. I would suggest, however, that most who get ahead do so because they provided some value and were effective at working with the team. That is a valuable trait; more valuable than simply being technically good at something. Or as I tell my children, it is more important to be effective than it is to be good.
But I’ve covered this topic and the pervasive & destructive negative attitude on many occasions. What is funny – in an interesting way – is that I sometimes get the “Yeah, well you’ve never had anything bad happen,” response. To which I can only say, please do not assume that I – or other people who maintain a positive, upbeat, proactive, and content outlook on life – have not and are not dealing with death, family issues, disease, stress, etc. It is wildly presumptuous.
The only difference in my case is that I view such things as par the course – they are the normal, if not sometimes tragic, events of life – just like economic fluctuations and draughts in Arizona. They come, they go, you deal with them as best you can and keep moving.
To that end, here are some blog entries written over the past year or so about negative versus positive perspectives…
The Man Is Trying To Keep Me Down
Economy of One & The Cult of the Disenfranchised
Corporations are Evil!! – Whaaaa!!
My Rose Colored Glasses: Realistic, Optimistic, and Proactive
I’ll state it again, there is great opportunity in IT and it is going to increase for several years. I am not manipulating numbers when I pointed to the BLS stats. I simply sorted what was there in a way that demonstrates a better example of true opportunity.
I met with an IT director (very large organization) recently who told me that his biggest problem was finding qualified talent. He explained that the salaries are rising very quickly and the available talent just didn’t exist. Outsourcing, offshoring, and the current number of students in the field will not remedy that.
Your perception of the field, your pursuit of value, your technical talent, and good business and communication skills will dictate your success in IT or any other field. It isn’t an either/or but a both/and proposition.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Career Blog: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
langleymass
MIS
"With automobile icon General Motors, the world’s largest automaker, announcing 30,000 layoffs and nine plant closures to reduce costs in the face of slumping demand, it’s safe to say that Motown has a serious case of the blues. But a new survey suggests more employment gloom lies ahead for the American automobile business.
It’s not the sort of trouble you’d expect. According to research conducted by Advanced Technology Services, a manufacturing services company, and AC Nielsen, a consulting and custom market research firm, automotive manufacturers are likely to find it hard to find good workers over the next decade as they are hit hard by a looming shortage of skilled labor in the U.S. manufacturing industry."
I guess some people just like to put out this stuff. This article here starts out by acknowledging that GM's layoffs. Then he goes into a paragraph about a "labor shortage."
Did these millionaire CEO's ever consider that when you keep screwing over your employees that eventually you are going to have trouble finding employees?
Do you know how to think?
They have trouble finding skilled employees. A car manufacturer (I don't recall who) was looking at building in Mississippi or Alabama but decided to build their plant in Canada because of the lack of skilled employees in the US state compared to the Canadian province.
The implication in their studies point to a lack of reading, writing, math, and analytical skills.
You are the most negative person I have ever seen post in these forums. And a lot of times you don't seem to think beyond what you read. Hmm, there is a lack of analytical skills in workers!?!
They have trouble finding skilled employees. A car manufacturer (I don't recall who) was looking at building in Mississippi or Alabama but decided to build their plant in Canada because of the lack of skilled employees in the US state compared to the Canadian province.
The implication in their studies point to a lack of reading, writing, math, and analytical skills.
You are the most negative person I have ever seen post in these forums. And a lot of times you don't seem to think beyond what you read. Hmm, there is a lack of analytical skills in workers!?!
- Thread starter
- #27
Langleymass,
I read your post and originally did not comment because I just wasn’t sure of its relevance to the discussion. I am guessing it was supposed to be a rebuttal to my post about people complaining/whining about evil corporations.
What is interesting is that people view an employer as “screwing” someone if they layoff 30,000 due to slumping demand.
First rule of search and rescue: You can’t help anyone if you get yourself injured or killed. How does it relate. It is better for GM to layoff 30,000 now then to die and layoff everyone later. It is actually immoral to fail to make those type of adjustments when the economy changes. Also, a company does not owe someone a job for life – no more than an individual employer is bound to a company for life. Things change – they always have.
Isn’t that great! You can make moves when you want or need something different. You can pursue any path you choose. You can start an ice-cream stand and become a millionaire. You can sell shoes. You can build cabinets. (by the way, these are all jobs of people I know personally – all of whom do quite well at their chosen endeavor) You can consult for a few select companies that let you telecommute, set your own schedule, and give you time to write and speak around the country (that’s what I do).
And let’s not get into the whole auto-workers union situation. Yes, I think the union has some benefits in that industry – I am not so hawkish as to say disband them but I also have friends and family who work in the auto-industry on the Canadian side. When I learned what some people were making in comparison to the work they did – and the guaranteed nature of the pay for many of them – and the horrific challenge the auto industry has in moving someone from one position to another to match production need (unions don’t like that) – I am shocked they stay in business at all.
Now where I would – at least theoretically agree (I’m guessing because no real point was made in your post) is in the area of CEO pay. There are CEO’s making an exorbitant sum of money to do a poor job. I have no problem with a CEO making millions if, based on a predetermined gauge, they produced growth-based profits for the company. But I am in no way suggesting that is dictated by law – I just think it is a good idea.
Also, just to clarify. I am not a big “free-trade” proponent – if it means creating trade agreements with countries who do not maintain the same safety and ecologic standards for the companies that operate there. Standard of living is not the gauge I would use because compared to the US, every country’s standard of living is lower.
Inevitably, we will find competition with countries that have a lower-standard of living – for a time – until that standard of living adjust but I do not believe we should have unrestricted trade with a country that puts children to work, dumps unfiltered toxins, or has unnecessarily hazardous working conditions.
But what does this all mean for the worker here?
Get strategically better. This, by the way, is the case for anyone who wishes to recession proof their career. It has been the same situation for more than 200 years. Placing widgets – even placing them very well – is not a strategic advantage.
Also, do not become a negative voice piece for any viewpoint. I don’t believe that positive mental attitude corrects every situation. But, positive mental attitude, coupled with a realistic plan of action, perseverance, dedication, hard work, and more importantly, smart work, must be better than a dismal perspective that positions you as a powerless pawn to the evil corporate juggernauts that run the little man.
You see, what will happen, during your self-pity and whining, is that your neighbor will see some opportunity, create a plan, stick his head down and work, and then 5 to 10 years from now will reach his carefully defined objectives. You will look at him and say, “He was lucky.” “He sold out.” Etc.
WARNING: DON’T LET THAT HAPPEN TO YOU!!
=====================
SUDDEN FUZZINESS INDICATE A FORAY INTO THE PAST
Early in my marriage, my wife and I were driving to my parent’s house. We were on the main thoroughfare of my home town. At one corner I saw that an old ranch house had been torn down. On its lot they had built two monstrous homes – so close together you could almost hop from roof to roof.
This caused me some distress – I’m not a big fan of the 20 foot back yard common in new homes in California these days.
I was staring at these houses and I commented to my wife, “What is going on here?”
Unknown to me, my wife was looking ahead at the road where a rear-end collision had just occurred in my lane. She thought my comment was about the auto-accident so she assumed that I saw it. I didn’t until she suddenly screamed, “What are you doing?”
Screech…crash!!
All three cars were in bad shape but fortunately, no injuries to the people involved. Sure, I had a bruised ego and had temporarily shattered my confidence….
Okay, Matt…What are you getting at? What is the point?
Uh… A couple of things..
* Don’t assume I see the accident or traffic in front of me – say something..
* If you are focused on a negative event that you cannot control, you cannot be watching the “road” ahead. You can’t do both. You will miss those inevitable challenges where a simple adjustment in your path opens possibility and a clear path.
In your career, you must have your head up – scanning the road for challenges and opportunities. Be ready to make adjustments as needed – including the occasional detour – but have your final objective in mind at all times.
FADE BACK TO THE PRESENT…
=====================
Man, that was pretty good considering I had never used that story as an analogy.
Finally, my original post pointed out key numbers from BLS.gov as indicating future growth in IT. These have been corroborated with studies from Gartner Research and some other journals.
My numbers had no funny math. I simply sorted them in a meaningful (to me, pay rate and growth is meaningful) way. What is more interesting is that CIS programs are not getting the number of students needed to fill demand. My publisher has asked me to speak several times in 2006 to college instructors about this problem.
For the professional who develops strategic knowledge – the accumulation of IT skills, business acumen, and communication skills – get ready! That person can already set their price and name their work – but the future of that person is very bright, indeed.
It is hard to spot opportunity if your head is down in your hands.
FYI: My second podcast went live last week:
I discuss proactive career/job seeking. Also, I’ve included a picture of me in my “studio” and a picture of my oldest children.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Career Blog: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
I read your post and originally did not comment because I just wasn’t sure of its relevance to the discussion. I am guessing it was supposed to be a rebuttal to my post about people complaining/whining about evil corporations.
What is interesting is that people view an employer as “screwing” someone if they layoff 30,000 due to slumping demand.
First rule of search and rescue: You can’t help anyone if you get yourself injured or killed. How does it relate. It is better for GM to layoff 30,000 now then to die and layoff everyone later. It is actually immoral to fail to make those type of adjustments when the economy changes. Also, a company does not owe someone a job for life – no more than an individual employer is bound to a company for life. Things change – they always have.
Isn’t that great! You can make moves when you want or need something different. You can pursue any path you choose. You can start an ice-cream stand and become a millionaire. You can sell shoes. You can build cabinets. (by the way, these are all jobs of people I know personally – all of whom do quite well at their chosen endeavor) You can consult for a few select companies that let you telecommute, set your own schedule, and give you time to write and speak around the country (that’s what I do).
And let’s not get into the whole auto-workers union situation. Yes, I think the union has some benefits in that industry – I am not so hawkish as to say disband them but I also have friends and family who work in the auto-industry on the Canadian side. When I learned what some people were making in comparison to the work they did – and the guaranteed nature of the pay for many of them – and the horrific challenge the auto industry has in moving someone from one position to another to match production need (unions don’t like that) – I am shocked they stay in business at all.
Now where I would – at least theoretically agree (I’m guessing because no real point was made in your post) is in the area of CEO pay. There are CEO’s making an exorbitant sum of money to do a poor job. I have no problem with a CEO making millions if, based on a predetermined gauge, they produced growth-based profits for the company. But I am in no way suggesting that is dictated by law – I just think it is a good idea.
Also, just to clarify. I am not a big “free-trade” proponent – if it means creating trade agreements with countries who do not maintain the same safety and ecologic standards for the companies that operate there. Standard of living is not the gauge I would use because compared to the US, every country’s standard of living is lower.
Inevitably, we will find competition with countries that have a lower-standard of living – for a time – until that standard of living adjust but I do not believe we should have unrestricted trade with a country that puts children to work, dumps unfiltered toxins, or has unnecessarily hazardous working conditions.
But what does this all mean for the worker here?
Get strategically better. This, by the way, is the case for anyone who wishes to recession proof their career. It has been the same situation for more than 200 years. Placing widgets – even placing them very well – is not a strategic advantage.
Also, do not become a negative voice piece for any viewpoint. I don’t believe that positive mental attitude corrects every situation. But, positive mental attitude, coupled with a realistic plan of action, perseverance, dedication, hard work, and more importantly, smart work, must be better than a dismal perspective that positions you as a powerless pawn to the evil corporate juggernauts that run the little man.
You see, what will happen, during your self-pity and whining, is that your neighbor will see some opportunity, create a plan, stick his head down and work, and then 5 to 10 years from now will reach his carefully defined objectives. You will look at him and say, “He was lucky.” “He sold out.” Etc.
WARNING: DON’T LET THAT HAPPEN TO YOU!!
=====================
SUDDEN FUZZINESS INDICATE A FORAY INTO THE PAST
Early in my marriage, my wife and I were driving to my parent’s house. We were on the main thoroughfare of my home town. At one corner I saw that an old ranch house had been torn down. On its lot they had built two monstrous homes – so close together you could almost hop from roof to roof.
This caused me some distress – I’m not a big fan of the 20 foot back yard common in new homes in California these days.
I was staring at these houses and I commented to my wife, “What is going on here?”
Unknown to me, my wife was looking ahead at the road where a rear-end collision had just occurred in my lane. She thought my comment was about the auto-accident so she assumed that I saw it. I didn’t until she suddenly screamed, “What are you doing?”
Screech…crash!!
All three cars were in bad shape but fortunately, no injuries to the people involved. Sure, I had a bruised ego and had temporarily shattered my confidence….
Okay, Matt…What are you getting at? What is the point?
Uh… A couple of things..
* Don’t assume I see the accident or traffic in front of me – say something..
* If you are focused on a negative event that you cannot control, you cannot be watching the “road” ahead. You can’t do both. You will miss those inevitable challenges where a simple adjustment in your path opens possibility and a clear path.
In your career, you must have your head up – scanning the road for challenges and opportunities. Be ready to make adjustments as needed – including the occasional detour – but have your final objective in mind at all times.
FADE BACK TO THE PRESENT…
=====================
Man, that was pretty good considering I had never used that story as an analogy.
Finally, my original post pointed out key numbers from BLS.gov as indicating future growth in IT. These have been corroborated with studies from Gartner Research and some other journals.
My numbers had no funny math. I simply sorted them in a meaningful (to me, pay rate and growth is meaningful) way. What is more interesting is that CIS programs are not getting the number of students needed to fill demand. My publisher has asked me to speak several times in 2006 to college instructors about this problem.
For the professional who develops strategic knowledge – the accumulation of IT skills, business acumen, and communication skills – get ready! That person can already set their price and name their work – but the future of that person is very bright, indeed.
It is hard to spot opportunity if your head is down in your hands.
FYI: My second podcast went live last week:
I discuss proactive career/job seeking. Also, I’ve included a picture of me in my “studio” and a picture of my oldest children.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Career Blog: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
langleymass
MIS
Actually I am about as optimistic about my career as I ever have been. I am learning hypnosis and other good stuff. I am very confident that I am going to start getting out of my career what I have put into it. It should be a whole lot of fun.
IT will always be a good field in the US and other developed nations, the main change, in my opinion, is that the commodity aspect of it has moved offshore, and that's not necessarily a bad thing--it is what it is.
There will always be a need for non-commidity technical people, whether it's management level or even lower level coder types who are still a step above commodity-level.
My point about commodity jobs is that sure--the heads-down coding has largely moved to less-developed nations, where there is a large pool of those skills, but due to the nation's economic standing--a low cost for those skills. But there will always be a demand for tech people with a pulse and on site. In the large project arena where much of the coding is done offshore, the higher-level project management and architecture is done onshore and onsite,and the soft-skills people will always be in-demand. I've dealt with offshore 'consulting' firms, and often even the low-level coding doesn't save any money in the long run because of the extra time needed for translation--not just translating language but trying to get a point across about a project requirement--sometimes you just need a body on site to do that. If someone has to spend extra time on the phone or emailing back-and-forth, and the timeclock keeps moving and we're missing deadlines--has the per-hour savings been realized?
So we lost a bunch of commodity jobs, we can't and probably shouldn't spend too much effort to stop that natrual attrition. To offset that loss of jobs we've also lost the scads of people going into the tech field for the wrong reasons. This serves to balance out the supply/demand differences caused by the initial loss of those low-level coder jobs.
Let the third world have the commodity tech jobs, just as they've got the commodity manufacturing jobs--why should we pay someone $18.40 to push a button on a stamping press when our end products can be cheaper to us by having someone do that offshore for $2.00 per hour? Same with software--it'll make our end products cheaper to us, and the developed nations can concentrate on training workers in the higher-level skills which will command higher pay and keep the standard of living higher, while our final price for our goods remains lower because the labor cost is not artificially high.
--Jim
There will always be a need for non-commidity technical people, whether it's management level or even lower level coder types who are still a step above commodity-level.
My point about commodity jobs is that sure--the heads-down coding has largely moved to less-developed nations, where there is a large pool of those skills, but due to the nation's economic standing--a low cost for those skills. But there will always be a demand for tech people with a pulse and on site. In the large project arena where much of the coding is done offshore, the higher-level project management and architecture is done onshore and onsite,and the soft-skills people will always be in-demand. I've dealt with offshore 'consulting' firms, and often even the low-level coding doesn't save any money in the long run because of the extra time needed for translation--not just translating language but trying to get a point across about a project requirement--sometimes you just need a body on site to do that. If someone has to spend extra time on the phone or emailing back-and-forth, and the timeclock keeps moving and we're missing deadlines--has the per-hour savings been realized?
So we lost a bunch of commodity jobs, we can't and probably shouldn't spend too much effort to stop that natrual attrition. To offset that loss of jobs we've also lost the scads of people going into the tech field for the wrong reasons. This serves to balance out the supply/demand differences caused by the initial loss of those low-level coder jobs.
Let the third world have the commodity tech jobs, just as they've got the commodity manufacturing jobs--why should we pay someone $18.40 to push a button on a stamping press when our end products can be cheaper to us by having someone do that offshore for $2.00 per hour? Same with software--it'll make our end products cheaper to us, and the developed nations can concentrate on training workers in the higher-level skills which will command higher pay and keep the standard of living higher, while our final price for our goods remains lower because the labor cost is not artificially high.
--Jim
BocaBurger
Vendor
Hiring off shore coders makes software cheaper? Have you tried purchasing a MS product recently? Or any other enterprise level program where the publisher uses off shore coders?
BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!
BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!
It makes it cheaper to produce BocaBurger, not to sell.![[orientalbow]](/data/assets/smilies/orientalbow.gif "[orientalbow] [orientalbow]")
That is the ideal situation, however, that is not the direction we are moving. Unfortunately we may be headed in the other direction. College graduation rates have stagnated while the number who attend college continues to rise.
A good case in point is the car manufacturer who looked at Mississippi or Alabama and ultimately chose a Canadaian city because of the lack of skill in American workers.
I believe this is partly because the US society has become one that believes it is owed everything. Everyone complains about defense spending, foreign aid, etc., however two-thirds of the US budget is entitlement programs, or as I call them, the give-me programs. Give-me this, Give-me that. People are not owed anything just because they were born here. They live off the hard work of others. Those who believe in hard work to give themselves a better life and their money is taken from them to give to deadbeats. Only when this changes will the original premise come true.
LadySlinger
IS-IT--Management
kHz you make a good point.
Heck and its not even just the "U.S.-born" people that believe they are owed something. I have a friend that works for immigration and if she counted the number of times someone going through the immigration process claims that they "have every right to be here" she would need more fingers and toes. If their Visa expired then they can't legally be here.
Plus I grew up with a lot of "gimmes" as I call them. My parents set us kids up to earn an allowance based on what work we did around the house. We'd get $0.75 for cleaning the dishes...50 cents for taking out the trash, etc. Some of my friends got an allowance of $20 per week just for sitting around and watching TV and eating popcorn.
Heck and its not even just the "U.S.-born" people that believe they are owed something. I have a friend that works for immigration and if she counted the number of times someone going through the immigration process claims that they "have every right to be here" she would need more fingers and toes. If their Visa expired then they can't legally be here.
Plus I grew up with a lot of "gimmes" as I call them. My parents set us kids up to earn an allowance based on what work we did around the house. We'd get $0.75 for cleaning the dishes...50 cents for taking out the trash, etc. Some of my friends got an allowance of $20 per week just for sitting around and watching TV and eating popcorn.
As MikeLacey suggested--the savings aren't necessarily passed on. In addition, I'd questioned whether the savings (for software, anyway) was actually realized, after the extra management overhead needed.
Either way, if MS was paying all of it's heads-down low-level coders $80,000 per year instead of $10,000 per year (or whatever the offshore rates amount to), then I can pretty much guarantee you that you'd be paying a heck of a lot more for the software.
--Jim
langleymass
MIS
There is definitely some truth that many Americans do believe that they are "owed" everything. However, Canada has much more socialist gimmies and entitlements than the USA does.
But do companies value hard work and the desire to learn? I see little or no evidence of that. Many workers have picked up on this and have responded accordingly.
I completed my MCSE on NT 4.0 back in 2000 and found it to be absolutely worthless in the job market. Naturally, I am now gun shy about pursuing any other certification. I haven't taken any test since.
I have mainly focused my ability on developing the skills of playing politics, shmoozing, or whatever you want to call it. I am learning neuro-lingustic programming, conversational hypnosis, and just about every mind-control skill that exists. It has actually been a lot of fun, and I already see it paying dividends with women.
But do companies value hard work and the desire to learn? I see little or no evidence of that. Many workers have picked up on this and have responded accordingly.
I completed my MCSE on NT 4.0 back in 2000 and found it to be absolutely worthless in the job market. Naturally, I am now gun shy about pursuing any other certification. I haven't taken any test since.
I have mainly focused my ability on developing the skills of playing politics, shmoozing, or whatever you want to call it. I am learning neuro-lingustic programming, conversational hypnosis, and just about every mind-control skill that exists. It has actually been a lot of fun, and I already see it paying dividends with women.
LadySlinger
IS-IT--Management
Yes companies do value hard work and the desire to learn. That's why many do offer education reimbursement or assistance.
In fact many right now are looking for people with education, previous experience and certifications. At least the area that I'm in they are.
Even in 2000, you at least had to have either certification & experience or a degree & experience.
Mind games can only get you so far in life. I've seen the biggest brown nosers be the first group of people to get laid off.
The people that know their stuff and are willing to work hard are the ones that seem to be keeping their jobs.
In fact many right now are looking for people with education, previous experience and certifications. At least the area that I'm in they are.
Even in 2000, you at least had to have either certification & experience or a degree & experience.
Mind games can only get you so far in life. I've seen the biggest brown nosers be the first group of people to get laid off.
The people that know their stuff and are willing to work hard are the ones that seem to be keeping their jobs.
- Thread starter
- #37
Langleymass,
Once again, I find you make broad generalities "But do companies value hard work and the desire to learn? I see little or no evidence of that."
I have yet to work for a company that does not value hard and smart work and a desire to learn - and I've worked for many.
However, you make a statement following that might be a clue. You indicate that you completed your MCSE on NT 4.0 back in 2000 and found it to be worthless in the job market.
Of course, the certification is only as valuable as the skills and knowledge you acquired while attaining it and the application of that skill and knowledge. The certification itself is worth the paper it is printed upon and no more.
It sounds like you went after the cert, not for the knowledge, but in hopes that hanging that MCSE after your name would produce work.
I have mentioned it before, the letters one needs to master is the TIME to get GOOD.
The statement about NLP and other mind-control helping you with woman is awesome! I had to show my wife. She thinks what you write is a put-on, just someone joking around. It sounds too much like those ads in the back of old comic books and muscle magazines.
Fortunately, when I dated, I found people I liked and had similar interest. Then, I didn't have use any mind control - we just got along. When we didn't get along, we went our separate ways.
Eventually, I met one where we got along so well we married.
Now if I could just learn that secret stare to make my teenagers clean their room everyday and do the dishes without asking.
If it is all a put on, you are funny! If it isn't, I'm really very sorry.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Career Blog: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
Once again, I find you make broad generalities "But do companies value hard work and the desire to learn? I see little or no evidence of that."
I have yet to work for a company that does not value hard and smart work and a desire to learn - and I've worked for many.
However, you make a statement following that might be a clue. You indicate that you completed your MCSE on NT 4.0 back in 2000 and found it to be worthless in the job market.
Of course, the certification is only as valuable as the skills and knowledge you acquired while attaining it and the application of that skill and knowledge. The certification itself is worth the paper it is printed upon and no more.
It sounds like you went after the cert, not for the knowledge, but in hopes that hanging that MCSE after your name would produce work.
I have mentioned it before, the letters one needs to master is the TIME to get GOOD.
The statement about NLP and other mind-control helping you with woman is awesome! I had to show my wife. She thinks what you write is a put-on, just someone joking around. It sounds too much like those ads in the back of old comic books and muscle magazines.
Fortunately, when I dated, I found people I liked and had similar interest. Then, I didn't have use any mind control - we just got along. When we didn't get along, we went our separate ways.
Eventually, I met one where we got along so well we married.
Now if I could just learn that secret stare to make my teenagers clean their room everyday and do the dishes without asking.
If it is all a put on, you are funny! If it isn't, I'm really very sorry.
Matthew Moran
Read my career blog at: Career Blog: Todo esta bien.. Todo esta divertido (it's all good, it's all fun)
langleymass
MIS
Matthew,
I went after the cert and the knowledge. Do you know what I did to get my MCSE? I spent one hour per day reading for two years. If I missed a day, I spent two hours reading the next day.
The most efficient way to get knowledge is through experience. How do you get experience? Do you buy it at Walmart?
What I writing about NLP is not a put-on. In fact, it has helped me immensely in my life. Most people who know me (especially those in my little NLP study group) agree. I am completely, totally serious.
I also have demonstrated my NLP techniques to my best friend. She's female and has been in my life for eight years. She can certainly understand why it will work.
I went after the cert and the knowledge. Do you know what I did to get my MCSE? I spent one hour per day reading for two years. If I missed a day, I spent two hours reading the next day.
The most efficient way to get knowledge is through experience. How do you get experience? Do you buy it at Walmart?
What I writing about NLP is not a put-on. In fact, it has helped me immensely in my life. Most people who know me (especially those in my little NLP study group) agree. I am completely, totally serious.
I also have demonstrated my NLP techniques to my best friend. She's female and has been in my life for eight years. She can certainly understand why it will work.
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