My official RANT on the value of Certifications 6

[itcamefrommars]

okok... my 2cents....
I've resisted saying something for over a year.

i have one MCP test....
4 years very good UNIX experience...
no degree.
and that's about it as far as human resource departments see....

I now work for a company that supports full education on anything... so I'm going for it: Cisco, MSCE, Citrix, etc.
I make fairly good money..... and I'd like to tell you why.

I wanted to get out of programming,
Started out with a foot in the door through a friend.
Got me a job.... went in and learned as much as I could...
didn't make much money at all at it. But in four years I was over double what I started. Degree? no... Certs... no.
Will to learn? yes but the biggest thing when I was part of hiring evaluations (I became lead tech and management).... ability to find and use resources.

If you can show the ability to find and use resources on the job.... you will fly. everything else helps, but you'd be surprised how many MCSE's only use TechNet.... and headbanging as resources.

On my new job... I've shown everyone solutions on this forum, and other forums on the net, and have tried to show these guys how to fix problems by looking for solutions in the right places. (I love this site! great unix guys)
Right now I'm in charge of getting PEAP running on a large wireless network of high security, and I'm the new guy (1 month on the job) and my boss knows I know the least about this stuff...
but guess what... he knows I'll figure it out quick, and win HUGE points with this client who can't get it working.

anyhow... i get verbose late at night.
point is that everything counts....
but proof that you're a VALUABLE ASSET TO THE BUSINESS is what it's all about. get your foot in the door, and show you can help support the business. then people will know of you, and you'll have offers knocking on your door all the time.
be the GO TO GUY when noone can fix it.
How? my theory....

Work at a place like you're the owner and you won't eat if you don't get the job done...

Always act in your head as if you're an independant consultant

1 you have to get the job done
2 you have to find new avenues of revenue (i.e. new or different technologies)
3 you have to stay current
4 you have to know what you're talking about

It's business... not the boyscouts.
they aren't merit badges.... certifications that is.
you should learn cisco stuff because you have to implement it or want to know how to for the business to be effiecient or for sales. not because you're worried about a job with or without a piece of paper.
I now have to use complex MS servers, complex Cisco technologies, UNIX (which i know very well),and citrix (easy). Do i know much about them? I know UNIX well. The rest only so-so... so the best way to learn the technologies is to study the books for the catagorized exams.... and i'll get certs out of it as a by product. but knowledge and experience is key. and knowledge without purpose or experience is worthless in comparison.

so if you're really green.... spend more time learning the OTHER NETWORKING. that is go to linux clubs, 2600 meetings, seminars, whatever.... get to know people that can get you jobs.
then get in, study the stuff you work with... and get the certs as you learn.... you will be invaluable to any company...
and better... you'll learn what you need to to go out on your own independently and make big money and choose what you want to do and when you want to do it. and really know what you're doing.

just get a job... whatever it is... and START!!!. cuz you're not gonna start at 60K ....
but in 4 years you might! so start NOW....
work at CompUSA if you have to. i know one guy that started there not knowing anything 10 years ago.... i was a 19 year old programmer on a NASA base and thought i was hot stuff.... and he blows me away now!


so if you read my rant.... go get a job and get started!
learn the business of it and learn the technology of this industry... don't be a harware monkey ...
anyone can train a monkey to plug in cat5 and give him a cert. Certs are worthwhile with experience....
without experience, you're on the bottom of the ladder.

official end of rant.

 

[itcamefrommars]

if i came off like daddy... sorry!
just wish someone told me that when i was young and getting started. wasted a lot of time pursuing what i thought employers wanted.... my CNA is worthless and never got me a job.

i just learned that businesses are to stay alive and thrive... and that's what employers want to hire...
help to do just that.

okokok im really done now.

 

[Visitor]

Couldn't agree more with the starting at the bottom of the ladder and working your way up with experience gained. Certs gained along the way are just the gravy. But I think situations are different for different people in different places. My CNA is what got me in the door at the contract company where I started my ladder climb...

 

[TheStressFactor]

Marshall that was a great post.

You made some excellent points. I am in a situation where I am the "IT Manager" but I am the only IT guy and this is for a company that is growing so fast so I am challenged daily with so many things. The ability to find the answers and rescourses to get the job done is such a key to a successful career.

Good luck to you and thanks for the post.

 

[dogbert2]

Well, when I started almost 21 years ago, there was something called on the job training and "grunt work". I started as a academic tutor, and then worked my way up to working in a computer lab, being a system operator on a mainframe, then a database and applications programmer, etc.

In order to prove one to their peers, they have to be willing to do the grunt work, and start off at the bottom (once you have gotten your foot in the door), as you get more experience, you move farther up the food chain.

I don't mind doing grunt work (since it's bound to come with the job), but certifications (I have 11 + a degree now), just take up space in the bottom of a dresser drawer and don't do much for me in my current job (Linux System Admin/Network d00d) <shrug>

 

[wybnormal]

I will add one thing to the *rant*. All the technical certs will not do you a bit of good if you can not communicate effectively. What do I mean by that?

Being able to talk on the phone to vendors without coming across as a jerk

Being able to help a user who may not know as much or anything at all about computers or networks without sounding annoyed, upset or tense.

Being able to write a full length and coherent sentence. Far too many geeks while smart, just can not write a simple paragraph to save their butts.

Knowing when to socialize and when to sit there quietly.

The new studies for the IT world show that managers look for social skills as much as geek skills nowdays.

Just food for thought.

MikeS


Find me at

http://www.packetattack.com

&quot;Take advantage of the enemy's unreadiness, make your way by unexpected routes, and attack unguarded spots.&quot;
Sun Tzu

 

[jtb]

Wy,

You are so right!!! I only wish more vendors could talk on the phone without being a jerk!!!

Speaking to a counpany rep &quot;somewhere out west&quot;, I jokingly replied that I thought $89.95 for a foreign language keyboard was quite a lot since it's only $3-$5 for a good used one and the guy told me off like I'd insulted his mom...


Maybe he already sells all he wants to?


All of us need to remember that--in sales at least--even jerks have money... that's the point of &quot;the customer is always right&quot;... They're usually wrong; but we need them to keep spending money in our direction...


Remember the old saying &quot;you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink&quot;? In sales, we're just supposed to make him thirsty and show him where to get what he wants...





JTB
Solutions Architect
MCSE-NT4, MCP+I, MCP-W2K, CCNA, CCDA,
CTE, MCIWD, i-Net+, Network+
(MCSA, MCSE-W2K, MCIWA, SCSA, SCNA in progress)

 

[PalmStrike]

What a great thread, very inspirational.

 

[marchon]

Work in IT help Desk

3 1/2 semester of School

Studied like crazy

Hopeful that his would an opportunity to get off the Help Desk, since everyone else in the IT Dept. Fail CCNA

Scored 911

Still on Help Desk Company wants me to take CCDA hahahahaha

 

[yawnbob]

Marchon,

If your company is willing to pay for the CCDA, go for it. Then if they still don't promote you take your CCNA & CCDA somewhere else. I've found that office politics play a larger part in promotions than skills do. Sometimes you just have to take it somewhere else.

 

[marchon]

You’re right, I just feel like I've been trick into getting the CCNA, which I don’t regret but I feel a little bet USED. When other people who have failed the test activity get to work with the equipment andI'm left with the occasional question on how to do something. Or “can you do this” type question

 

[jdel]

wybnormal

You couldn't have put it better. Too often the technical people are annoyed or terse with end users because their egos cannot be bothered to help with such &quot;mundane and remedial&quot; tasks. Learning to relate to another human as WELL as a computer is a skill that employers are now looking for. When it all comes down to it people will do business with someone that they feel good about, that treats them well. There's always going to be someone out there with more knowledge and more technical skill, but if you speak to them and treat them like a decent person would, you will get the business. You don't always need to be right. You definitely do not need to belittle someone if they are wrong. It's not only words. Tone. Inflection. Body language and facial expressions (if in person). All of these can be condescending. LISTEN to your customers.

The days of guru techs that can act however they want are gone. You need human relation skills now. That, to me, is just as important as any technical knowledge.

 

[itcamefrommars]

Marshall here again... thanks to all for you responses.

this thread started right before "I lost my life" last year.

im now in business for my self and still don't know how i got here.

too much work to handle... and lot's of fun.

the last year sucked personally.... but the stuff i said in this post proved true!!!!!!!!

SUCCESS STORY!!!!!

http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?SQID=795486&SPID=1248&page=1

this is my first post in one year shy a few days....
check it out!


you guys are great and im glad to be back!

please everyone pray for me.... or whatever you do religion/belief/life-wise.... for I have hopes to be reunited with my children in a few months.... it's been 13 months so far.

signing out... Mars.

 

[jdel]

http://www.computerworld.com/news/1997/story/0,11280,9869,00.html

 

[dogbert2]

Well, this article doesn't show anything that hasn't already been said before, IMO. The reason why the problem has come up is two-fold:

1. - Users try to assume the person on the other end of the phone knows everything about every piece of software on the computer (not the stuff they actually support, mind you). The standard term for this is called mission creep.

2. - Users not bothering to learn anything about the computer that sits in front of them (I could blame our educational system for this, but in general, most of the problems stem from the lack of end users UNWILLING to learn anything about how the computer works).

3. - I usually wind up suggesting to customers to get a friend who is knowledgable about computers to help them out, and at the same time, get some training on computer basics, etc. If users would just take the time to LEARN and expand the ole mind, they would be the winners in the long run (due to the fact they can figure out all of the basic stuff on their own).

Just my two cents worth...

 

[jdel]

My retort. I did help desk support, I know what it's like.

1. - Help Deskers try to assume the person on the other end of the phone should know everything about every part of the computer (not the stuff they actually use, mind you). The standard term for this is called arrogance.

2. - Help Deskers not bothering to learn anything about the problem that the user is experiencing (I could blame our educational system for this lack of listenting skills, but in general, most of the problems stem from the lack of help deskers UNWILLING to learn anything about how the computer is used by the user).

3. - I usually wind up suggesting to help deskers to get a friend who is knowledgable about applications to help them out, and at the same time, get some training on the appls, etc. If help deskers would just take the time to LEARN and expand the ole mind, they would be the winners in the long run (due to the fact they can figure out all of the basic support stuff on their own).



They don't ask you to do their job, why are you assuming they should know yours?

 

[chicocouk]

Frequently they do ask you to do their job.

Anyway, nice to see those interpersonal skill are coming along. Obviously a worthwhile article.



CCNA, MCSE, Cisco Firewall specialist, VPN specialist, wannabe CCSP

 

[Nzarth]

Posts like these hit nearly every technical forum Some posters agree with the comments made and so do not.

Glad to see this thread has not turned into a fight like some threads I have seen

I do agree with most of the points here:

Yes, interpersonal skills are a must and you should not talk to people who know less than you like a piece of dirt (surely a human trait that all beings should possess).

Get to know the products that you are dealing with and support as much as you can or as much as you want to. I have come across too many so called techies that do not know very much. For instance I phoned a well know IT company and spoke to a techie that did not know what a CPU was.

I have worked very hard in the IT industry in the relatively short time that I have been in it (4 years). The first job I had I was chucked into 3rd line support (believe that or not) and it was a case of sink or swim.

Whilst learning I was looking around at what courses I could do to compliment my experience and also a method of gaining further knowledge and also find out what a product can or cannot do.

Hence I studied the MCSE path (this was self study and I paid for all the books and exams).

I felt that this separated me from my counterparts in the company I worked for and my boss seemed to use it in his proposals that were sent to clients, etc.

Anyway, I had enough of my old job for various reasons and started to look for a new job.

Guess what most of the jobs I thought suitable were looking for MCSE and or CCNA. If you did not have the requirements then do not bother applying.

Whether you like or loath certs they are here to stay. Employers use these certs as a guide as to whether the techie will be able to do the job.

Yes, I know just becuase you have a cert does not make you a good engineer, but try and tell that to an employer who has less IT knowledge than a beached whale!!!!

At the moment I am studying for my CCNA. It may or may not add me in my current job, but at least it will give me a better understanding about how switches, packets, etc travel around a network.

I do intend to get into IT security as it has always interest me and hopefully I will start my own business, when I feel I am good enough.

Again, I will be getting certs to prove this and also to give me some knowledge regarding security (i.e. CCSP and also some Checkpoint).

If you do not like certs then no one forces you to do them (unless its your employer) and I certainly do not think that they make you a worst engineer.

Most people go on about the value of certs because they think its their gateway to making even more money and they should be earning it as soon as they get the pass exam mark on the screen.

People moan about it was their certs fault for not getting them the directorship of their company.

I think I will leave it there...not a moan or picking on people just my honest opinion and the experience that I have had in obtaining certs.

Good Luck

Nzarth

MCSA/MCSE (W2K), CCA

Working on CCNA

 

[itcamefrommars]

...Most people go on about the value of certs because they think its their gateway to making even more money and they should be earning it as soon as they get the pass exam mark on the screen....

Just quoting because something in it caused a reflection in my self.

The really funny thing is the less I worry about or try to make money...
the more money I make!

There deffinately are two very different GENUS of techies...

those that found them selves into it personally ...
and those that chose it as a career for career reasons.
And please don't read in any negativity into that.
Just remember... passion of tech drives performance and learning of tech...
not money!

anyhow... im a computer hippy i think

I am Marshall ... I come from Mars ... I come in peace

first computer... atari 800XL

 

[Nzarth]

LMAO.....I agree with your last post 100%. I chose this career not as a my god I can make £100,000 at this if I am good, but as I really like messing around with PCs and stuff, open it up and see how it works.

Good job I did not become a Vet

btw first PC ZX80....oohhh 1K of memory.....

Nzarth

MCSA/MCSE (W2K), CCA

Working on CCNA