Referred to this rather amusing article, I thought the readers here would like to get a kick out of it and comment...
Comment?
Gary
gwinn7
A+, Network+
Comment?
Gary
gwinn7
A+, Network+
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Microsoft Cheaper Than Linux? 1
- Thread starter gwinn7
- Start date
sleipnir214
Programmer
Craig0201:
It is you who has completely missed the point of this discussion.
Choosing mission-critical software is not something a business does lightly. If I pick the wrong OS on my own computer, I can start from scratch and load what I need -- I'm only out (at worst) a couple of hundred bucks. But when you multiply that by 100 machines (as in this survey), the business can be out $20,000 dollars. Not to mention lost profitability, costs of retraining personnel, and other expenses.
So businesses need clear, reproducible, non-biased data to use to make their decisions. If anyone is tainting data in order that a survey produce the answers he wants, then he is behaving unethically -- he is lying to the public. And no, it doesn't matter that everyone else is doing it, it still doesn't make it ethical behavior. And anyone who has ever been laid off will tell you that business decisions affect people.
Mi¢ro$oft, in particular, has a track record of lying to its consumers about the stability of its operating systems, the extent of security breaches associated with known exploitable software bugs, and their ability to innovate (which in Mi¢ro$oft terms seems to really mean "we bought some other product and branded it as our own". They have had a crusade going against open-source software in general for the last 4 years ( and within two weeks of announcing the end of the crusade, they release this survey. I, for one, haven't forgotten that the last time Mi¢lro$oft published data of this type, their survey methodologies discredited the entire report.
You want some counter-data? Try: ______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!
It is you who has completely missed the point of this discussion.
Choosing mission-critical software is not something a business does lightly. If I pick the wrong OS on my own computer, I can start from scratch and load what I need -- I'm only out (at worst) a couple of hundred bucks. But when you multiply that by 100 machines (as in this survey), the business can be out $20,000 dollars. Not to mention lost profitability, costs of retraining personnel, and other expenses.
So businesses need clear, reproducible, non-biased data to use to make their decisions. If anyone is tainting data in order that a survey produce the answers he wants, then he is behaving unethically -- he is lying to the public. And no, it doesn't matter that everyone else is doing it, it still doesn't make it ethical behavior. And anyone who has ever been laid off will tell you that business decisions affect people.
Mi¢ro$oft, in particular, has a track record of lying to its consumers about the stability of its operating systems, the extent of security breaches associated with known exploitable software bugs, and their ability to innovate (which in Mi¢ro$oft terms seems to really mean "we bought some other product and branded it as our own"
. They have had a crusade going against open-source software in general for the last 4 years ( and within two weeks of announcing the end of the crusade, they release this survey. I, for one, haven't forgotten that the last time Mi¢lro$oft published data of this type, their survey methodologies discredited the entire report.You want some counter-data? Try: ______________________________________________________________________
TANSTAAFL!
Sleipner: Very good link, thanks for both, made some good reading.
And now I better go see to changing my signature, i didn't notice how alike they were until just now
-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
And now I better go see to changing my signature, i didn't notice how alike they were until just now
-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
I am sorry if the post offended anyone. It certainly wasn't intended to.
I didn't feel that this was a rational discussion. I read it in a way that Linux is better because I say it is. A number of posters have been discrediting the Microsoft report WITHOUT replacing it with an argumnet of their own. It seemed to me to be a case of: It's wrong because Microsoft say it is true.
I would be equally sceptical of the report on the IBM site. IBM are a big proponent of Linux and supporting it can only boost their server sales.
Until the day that all businesses are identical, there will never be a single best platform, nor a single cheapest platform. The number of variables involved are simply too big. You can disagree with Microsoft's figures, you can disagree with IBM's figures, you can disagree with whatever figures you like but the fact remains that you have to make your choice and sometimes Microsoft is the best option.
Craig
I didn't feel that this was a rational discussion. I read it in a way that Linux is better because I say it is. A number of posters have been discrediting the Microsoft report WITHOUT replacing it with an argumnet of their own. It seemed to me to be a case of: It's wrong because Microsoft say it is true.
I would be equally sceptical of the report on the IBM site. IBM are a big proponent of Linux and supporting it can only boost their server sales.
Until the day that all businesses are identical, there will never be a single best platform, nor a single cheapest platform. The number of variables involved are simply too big. You can disagree with Microsoft's figures, you can disagree with IBM's figures, you can disagree with whatever figures you like but the fact remains that you have to make your choice and sometimes Microsoft is the best option.
Craig
As much as I love this discussion there seems to be two themes to it. One is what platform is easier to use and the other is which platform is cheaper. Microsoft is claiming that because their platform is easier to use it is cheaper.
I do believe that Open Source Software does lack true consistency and usability and is the biggest downside of free software.
In a study by Apple computers (on usability) they found consistently that using the mouse was faster then using shortcut keys. Scripts are can provide a great deal of automation but what Rycamor doesn't know is that MS does have plenty of scripting features. Just go in the VBScript section to see what some people are capable of scripting. Heck Perl actually runs on Windows as well and can be used to do the command line administration you mentionned (with a slightly different syntax) or even good old batch files.
Thing is Unix does many things better but it remains a very complex OS that most people can't use without getting lost in jargon or let's face it ugly inconsistent GUIs. Windows is consistent, easy to use and as scriptable as *nix.
I use Mandrake as a desktop (as well as XP) and use FreeBSD as my web server. Gary Haran
I do believe that Open Source Software does lack true consistency and usability and is the biggest downside of free software.
In a study by Apple computers (on usability) they found consistently that using the mouse was faster then using shortcut keys. Scripts are can provide a great deal of automation but what Rycamor doesn't know is that MS does have plenty of scripting features. Just go in the VBScript section to see what some people are capable of scripting. Heck Perl actually runs on Windows as well and can be used to do the command line administration you mentionned (with a slightly different syntax) or even good old batch files.
Thing is Unix does many things better but it remains a very complex OS that most people can't use without getting lost in jargon or let's face it ugly inconsistent GUIs. Windows is consistent, easy to use and as scriptable as *nix.
I use Mandrake as a desktop (as well as XP) and use FreeBSD as my web server. Gary Haran
"using the mouse was faster then using shortcut keys"
Really? Cool. Was this a test on completely replacing the mouse with shortcut keys or just certain tasks? I'd be interested to see the documentation, interesting test.
VBScript, I'm a member, in fact if you look at the ASP forum experts list it sounds like I might know a little about it, whereas I haven't touched Perl in a couple years.
Point? I'm not convinced that scripting is easier in a Windows atmosphere.
Reliability of *nix over Windows is not an opinion, but a proven fact.
Speed of *nix over Windows is also not an opinion, but a fact. (MS had to slow apache down in order to beat it, etc)
Scripting...you don't have access to half the things yuo want to do, how could it be as powerful on a Windows machine? Sure you can use Perl, but will the OS give you access to make the changes you want?
As to links, sleipner's links provided a whole slew of them.
As to me being one of the "free software hippies" mentioned above, i think if you look at other threads I normally try to argue for Windows, I run both systems,
Use the best tool for the job.
-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Really? Cool. Was this a test on completely replacing the mouse with shortcut keys or just certain tasks? I'd be interested to see the documentation, interesting test.
VBScript, I'm a member, in fact if you look at the ASP forum experts list it sounds like I might know a little about it, whereas I haven't touched Perl in a couple years.
Point? I'm not convinced that scripting is easier in a Windows atmosphere.
Reliability of *nix over Windows is not an opinion, but a proven fact.
Speed of *nix over Windows is also not an opinion, but a fact. (MS had to slow apache down in order to beat it, etc)
Scripting...you don't have access to half the things yuo want to do, how could it be as powerful on a Windows machine? Sure you can use Perl, but will the OS give you access to make the changes you want?
As to links, sleipner's links provided a whole slew of them.
As to me being one of the "free software hippies" mentioned above, i think if you look at other threads I normally try to argue for Windows, I run both systems,
Use the best tool for the job.
-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
sleipnir214
Programmer
Craig0201:
Even if you discount that Mi¢ro$oft's report said one thing, and IBM's another, there is still the matter of the scale of the numbers -- they differ by orders of magnitude, even on line items that, at least by description, should be the same.
The IBM report also includes methodology descriptions and other meta-information that can allow you to weigh the value of the study. When Mi¢ro$oft releases a report, you typically get the executive summary through their marketing department. It's the Wizard of Oz's old "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" thing.
xutopia:
*nix's GUI can be just as consistent as the Win32 GUI. Your system adminstrator simply says, "Okay, people, all company-owned machines on this network use [KDE|Gnome|<whatever>]." Don't confuse choices with inconsistency.
Also, many companies find open-source productivity suites competely usable -- and more every day.
Yes, setting up a *nix network, to do it right, can be a more daunting task than a Win32 network (so long as you stayed away from Windows ME -- don't get me started), but that does not imply more difficulty of use. Through judicious use of NFS and NIS, you can have network-wide single-signons, portable profiles, and even apparantly-local portable "My Documents" folders. And I've found that so long as they can find their documents, invoke their necessary programs, and their screen-saver doesn't change without their knowing about it, a majority of users are happy with any system.
I'd like to take a look at that Apple mouse/keyboard study, too. You got a link? Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
Even if you discount that Mi¢ro$oft's report said one thing, and IBM's another, there is still the matter of the scale of the numbers -- they differ by orders of magnitude, even on line items that, at least by description, should be the same.
The IBM report also includes methodology descriptions and other meta-information that can allow you to weigh the value of the study. When Mi¢ro$oft releases a report, you typically get the executive summary through their marketing department. It's the Wizard of Oz's old "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" thing.
xutopia:
*nix's GUI can be just as consistent as the Win32 GUI. Your system adminstrator simply says, "Okay, people, all company-owned machines on this network use [KDE|Gnome|<whatever>]." Don't confuse choices with inconsistency.
Also, many companies find open-source productivity suites competely usable -- and more every day.
Yes, setting up a *nix network, to do it right, can be a more daunting task than a Win32 network (so long as you stayed away from Windows ME -- don't get me started), but that does not imply more difficulty of use. Through judicious use of NFS and NIS, you can have network-wide single-signons, portable profiles, and even apparantly-local portable "My Documents" folders. And I've found that so long as they can find their documents, invoke their necessary programs, and their screen-saver doesn't change without their knowing about it, a majority of users are happy with any system.
I'd like to take a look at that Apple mouse/keyboard study, too. You got a link? Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
hmm..
Use the best tool for the job.
-Tarwn
I'm suprised that didn't end the conv.
I have something better then all of you. The AS/400 with IE for a GUI. OK, Maybe not![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
My most satisfying and best work has come from helping others
admin@onpntwebdesigns.com
Use the best tool for the job.
-Tarwn
I'm suprised that didn't end the conv.
I have something better then all of you. The AS/400 with IE for a GUI. OK, Maybe not
My most satisfying and best work has come from helping othersadmin@onpntwebdesigns.com
In GUI terms the conventions Windows takes to being consistently similar to the next version is very consistant.
That, I believe is the reasoning behind so many companies (namely manufacturing settings) using it. It is easy to use from a user stand point. User proof if there is such a thing, and upon a version upgrade when needed in the company, the consistency of the interface for a user side of things does not change a great deal. This I itself from a business point of view on the cost side of things (training etc.) is worth it. My most satisfying and best work has come from helping others
admin@onpntwebdesigns.com
That, I believe is the reasoning behind so many companies (namely manufacturing settings) using it. It is easy to use from a user stand point. User proof if there is such a thing, and upon a version upgrade when needed in the company, the consistency of the interface for a user side of things does not change a great deal. This I itself from a business point of view on the cost side of things (training etc.) is worth it. My most satisfying and best work has come from helping others
admin@onpntwebdesigns.com
sleipnir214
Programmer
onpnt:
And that differs from picking a standard Xwindow desktop manager in that......?
strongm:
![[rofl]](/data/assets/smilies/rofl.gif "[rofl] [rofl]")
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
And that differs from picking a standard Xwindow desktop manager in that......?
strongm:
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!Speaking of consistent desktops, I can make my KDE desktop look exactly like windows XP, down to only having one screen (ick), double click to open files, windows style title bars on my windows, right click menus, etc, etc, etc. In fact if your users never use DOS than they never need to use Linux command line, it has come far enough that as long as you trim the menu down and give them a link (as was mentioned above) to their documents and personal folder area, it looks and feels extremely similar to windows. Then you apply the windows XP theme (if your really insane) and there are still differances, but very very few.
Sounds like a lot of work, right? nah, set up one, create a script to duplicate it, or use a GUI tool to create some default new user settings so every new user looks like your custom one, and away you go.
As to manufacturer settings, if you set up all your user machines the same (with settings and such) it shouldn't really matter to anything less than the developer if they have three machines with three differant builds.
-Tarwn
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Sounds like a lot of work, right? nah, set up one, create a script to duplicate it, or use a GUI tool to create some default new user settings so every new user looks like your custom one, and away you go.
As to manufacturer settings, if you set up all your user machines the same (with settings and such) it shouldn't really matter to anything less than the developer if they have three machines with three differant builds.
-Tarwn
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MasterRacker
New member
More comments on this:
Jeff
No matter how bad it is, it can always get worse ....
Jeff
No matter how bad it is, it can always get worse ....
It's this kind of behavior that gets Microsoft sued over and over again.
Which behaviour? (Theres been so many examples)
Also, anyone actually have a link to all the lawsuits, or even a count? I actually hadn't realized there were enough to say "over and over again" but the more I think about it, the more I realize it's possible, especially considering how good they are at PR, anything "minor" could be spun or hushed.
-Tarwn
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Which behaviour? (Theres been so many examples)
Also, anyone actually have a link to all the lawsuits, or even a count? I actually hadn't realized there were enough to say "over and over again" but the more I think about it, the more I realize it's possible, especially considering how good they are at PR, anything "minor" could be spun or hushed.
-Tarwn
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Speaking of Total Cost of Ownership. What about the cost of maintaining your mountain of windows licenses?
I would like to see a comparison of cost from running a nt4 server (which a lot of small and medium size business still have, such as the business I work for.) and a *nix server. You would have to include the cost of every concievable utility needed for a server. NT4 doesn't even come with a defrag utility! Also throw in the cost of the network crashing every two weeks, and throw in the cost of the backup system failing for a random reason and losing data!
Granted, win2000 server is a much better system, but not all companies (especially in our modern economy) will invest in the latest and from microsoft.
I would like to see a comparison of cost from running a nt4 server (which a lot of small and medium size business still have, such as the business I work for.) and a *nix server. You would have to include the cost of every concievable utility needed for a server. NT4 doesn't even come with a defrag utility! Also throw in the cost of the network crashing every two weeks, and throw in the cost of the backup system failing for a random reason and losing data!
Granted, win2000 server is a much better system, but not all companies (especially in our modern economy) will invest in the latest and from microsoft.
One point people miss is a OS is really only as good as the apps that will run on it. Thats why everyone thinks linux is such a good webserver, because apache is ported for it.
The problem in the accounting world, and I'm guessing everywhere else, is all the good software is made for windows. Thus even if you OS doesn't slow you down, the lesser applications will.
The problem in the accounting world, and I'm guessing everywhere else, is all the good software is made for windows. Thus even if you OS doesn't slow you down, the lesser applications will.
Hmm, software, yummy:
Quicken: $50, $70, $80 US for intial purchase
Then theres GnuCash (don't have the linux machine up, may have misremebered the name), umm free and imports QIF files.
This is not an accountants machine. Accountants have enough problems with win 95
All of the highly advertised software is made for Windows. Even that is to general a statement. We can't say all the good software, because there is a great deal of good software included in most types of Linux. Plus there is a whole heck of a lot that you can download independantly of the ISO's you need to install it. Plus support (if wanted) is cheaper. Win2000 SP3 fubar'd my machine. The only way i could contact them was through a forum (sorry, not going to pay that much to ask them what they did to my computer so I could fix it myself). I got one answer. It was entirely unrelated to my question except for the fact that a few jeywords in my question appeared in the answer. I eventually managed to shovel sp3 off my system and just recently got my settings menu back.
I'm not bitter
MS Windows is further ahead in the arena of general public knowledge, but Linux us further ahead in how well applications tie in to the OS. Every time a programmer decides they need a large tool, they start building it (well, obviously not all programmers, but enough to make a differance). So basically what I have found is so many tools I can't play with them all. Applications, games, etc. MS Windows may be ahead here and there, Linux may be ahead here and there, but I son't see a clear cut definitive one in front of the other situation.
-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
No more vacation for me
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Quicken: $50, $70, $80 US for intial purchase
Then theres GnuCash (don't have the linux machine up, may have misremebered the name), umm free and imports QIF files.
This is not an accountants machine. Accountants have enough problems with win 95
All of the highly advertised software is made for Windows. Even that is to general a statement. We can't say all the good software, because there is a great deal of good software included in most types of Linux. Plus there is a whole heck of a lot that you can download independantly of the ISO's you need to install it. Plus support (if wanted) is cheaper. Win2000 SP3 fubar'd my machine. The only way i could contact them was through a forum (sorry, not going to pay that much to ask them what they did to my computer so I could fix it myself). I got one answer. It was entirely unrelated to my question except for the fact that a few jeywords in my question appeared in the answer. I eventually managed to shovel sp3 off my system and just recently got my settings menu back.
I'm not bitter
MS Windows is further ahead in the arena of general public knowledge, but Linux us further ahead in how well applications tie in to the OS. Every time a programmer decides they need a large tool, they start building it (well, obviously not all programmers, but enough to make a differance). So basically what I have found is so many tools I can't play with them all. Applications, games, etc. MS Windows may be ahead here and there, Linux may be ahead here and there, but I son't see a clear cut definitive one in front of the other situation.
-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
No more vacation for me
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