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Merlin Legend VS IP office 2
- Thread starter nowb2509
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tdaugirdas
Technical User
Good question! Maybe they like spending a lot of money on systems that don't quite work - at least as advertised.
Tom Daugirdas,
President
STCG, Inc.
stcg.com
Tom Daugirdas,
President
STCG, Inc.
stcg.com
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1
- #3
dagwoodsystems
Programmer
Agreed. The MAGIX was sunsetted prematurely. Bail on IPO; your next move is to their "Gateway" products.
telecomtekperson
Vendor
They are going to IP systems, because they have no choice. Avaya, prematuraly, and illogically, discontinued Magix. The only thing dumber, would be to make the capacity larger and discontinue the Definity line..... lol, but tell me they haven't thought of it....lol
I would say that anybody who is not having luck w/ an IPO is not installing it correctly or has a technician who does not know what he is doing. I would say 90% of IPO's are being run as straight PBX's w/ digital sets w/ the option for IP connectivity. The benefits, ease of install and price is far superior to anything the Magix has ever done. Now whether the hardware itself lasts as long as Legend/Magix hardware is still 10 years away.
From a feature, VM, and more bang for your buck point of view the IPO kicks the hell out of the Magix, not to mention the 4400 series phones can be brought w/ the IPO.
Every IPO I have installed has performed "as advertised", including a few SCN's, networked systems to Magix's, Call Center app's etc.
Figure it out damn-it!
From a feature, VM, and more bang for your buck point of view the IPO kicks the hell out of the Magix, not to mention the 4400 series phones can be brought w/ the IPO.
Every IPO I have installed has performed "as advertised", including a few SCN's, networked systems to Magix's, Call Center app's etc.
Figure it out damn-it!
I agree with the last post. As an Avaya Business Partner and former System Consultant with AT&T and Lucent I have had lots of experience with the Legend/Magix products. We began selling the IP Office about 1 1/2 years ago.
First off most of our installations are not IP. Most are using the 54xx series telephones and love them. There are no desi labels to change when you make button changes on the phone. There are numerous features in VMPro that you could not even begin to think about with the Magix. There are also numerous features that are available with the IP Office that you would never be able to do with a Magix i.e. hotdesking, hotdialing, built in meet me conferencing (works great with PRI) and the list goes on and on.
The trouble I have found with most unsatisfied customers that have called us is that the partner that sold the system to them was unprepared to do an IP OFfice installation. Going to the certification class and passing it does not prepare you to do an installation. The only way to learn the IP Office is with hands on experience.
As far as the price goes if you are not adding the IP capabilities to te system such as voice compression modules the price is very close.
There are shortcomings with the IP Office such as cascade outcalling (i've heard this will be fixed 1Q 2007 on release 4.0), only 1 24 button DSS on a phone (console) but there are many more shortcomings with the Magix.
By the way.....IP works great as long as the network does too.
First off most of our installations are not IP. Most are using the 54xx series telephones and love them. There are no desi labels to change when you make button changes on the phone. There are numerous features in VMPro that you could not even begin to think about with the Magix. There are also numerous features that are available with the IP Office that you would never be able to do with a Magix i.e. hotdesking, hotdialing, built in meet me conferencing (works great with PRI) and the list goes on and on.
The trouble I have found with most unsatisfied customers that have called us is that the partner that sold the system to them was unprepared to do an IP OFfice installation. Going to the certification class and passing it does not prepare you to do an installation. The only way to learn the IP Office is with hands on experience.
As far as the price goes if you are not adding the IP capabilities to te system such as voice compression modules the price is very close.
There are shortcomings with the IP Office such as cascade outcalling (i've heard this will be fixed 1Q 2007 on release 4.0), only 1 24 button DSS on a phone (console) but there are many more shortcomings with the Magix.
By the way.....IP works great as long as the network does too.
Until you have installed both systems correctly your opinion on them is biased.
Anybody that has installed a PRI with DID's on both Magix and IPO will tell you how much better the IPO is.
The 2 prroblem with the IPO is the lack of experienced installers and phone guys with out computer skills.
Anybody that has installed a PRI with DID's on both Magix and IPO will tell you how much better the IPO is.
The 2 prroblem with the IPO is the lack of experienced installers and phone guys with out computer skills.
i started doing magix with no training, just a manual. my experience with numerous other systems helped with muddling through the magix. i am not great with the magix, but can do the basics, and figure out by myself how to do much.
ipo i have no training, just a manual. my experience with numerous other systems helped little to none with the ipo. i am not great with the ipo, but can do the basics, and figure out by myself how to do much.
big difference is each new release decreases your knowledge by percentage of the whole with ipo at a staggering rate. i have been doing the ipo just since the begining of 2006, and the number of releases, maint releases, patches, new features, etc. has matched that of the magix since it became the magix i think.
in short, it is a bigger pie to eat. more pieces, and more flavors to become familiar with. when you get almost done eating the pie, another pie is set before you, and you can eat that one too, or take a nap full, and wake up with 5 pies on the table to eat to catch up.
just my opinion.
i have seen more than one confidant, highly experienced non-ipo tech underestimate the complexity of teaching yourself to do the ipo. end up with a bad experience for themselves, their customer, and their reputation. ending up having to call in an experienced tech to help before the installation of the hardware because they were aware they could not meet the cutover with out help, even after starting what they thought was early on the project. only to have the experienced guy wipe the config. return it to factory default, downgrade the system, and start from scratch. reprogramming it from square one because it was quicker than trying to clean up what was already started.
the old saying 'experience is the best teacher' is wrong on the ipo, 'experience is the only teacher'
You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.
ipo i have no training, just a manual. my experience with numerous other systems helped little to none with the ipo. i am not great with the ipo, but can do the basics, and figure out by myself how to do much.
big difference is each new release decreases your knowledge by percentage of the whole with ipo at a staggering rate. i have been doing the ipo just since the begining of 2006, and the number of releases, maint releases, patches, new features, etc. has matched that of the magix since it became the magix i think.
in short, it is a bigger pie to eat. more pieces, and more flavors to become familiar with. when you get almost done eating the pie, another pie is set before you, and you can eat that one too, or take a nap full, and wake up with 5 pies on the table to eat to catch up.
just my opinion.
i have seen more than one confidant, highly experienced non-ipo tech underestimate the complexity of teaching yourself to do the ipo. end up with a bad experience for themselves, their customer, and their reputation. ending up having to call in an experienced tech to help before the installation of the hardware because they were aware they could not meet the cutover with out help, even after starting what they thought was early on the project. only to have the experienced guy wipe the config. return it to factory default, downgrade the system, and start from scratch. reprogramming it from square one because it was quicker than trying to clean up what was already started.
the old saying 'experience is the best teacher' is wrong on the ipo, 'experience is the only teacher'
You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.
I agree w/ shine52,shathcock,1043,and kmefford. Also a former AT&T/LUCENT system consultant and tech I agree word for word.I also feel strongly that any vendor doing Partners and Magix who doesn't get into the IPOFFICE may as well close the doors and go the way of the dinosaur.
Just my opinion
Just my opinion
kflounders
Programmer
I love the IP Office line as well as the Merlin line. For anyone out there who says that IP Office doesn't work is just plain wrong. Don't get me wrong it is not perfect, and I will agree that IPO has some ground to make up when we talk about reliability but for those of us who were around for Legend R1 will tell you that it wasn't always the old reliable that it is today.
You find yourself saying yes far more than no when customers ask you if it can do something and it is easier to train installers on. The documentaion is not very good when compared to the wonderful binders that used to come with the Legends, but not terrible either. We will still sell Merlin to some customers that will give up features for reliability for now, but I hope to be able to phase it out shortly as the IPO grows.
You find yourself saying yes far more than no when customers ask you if it can do something and it is easier to train installers on. The documentaion is not very good when compared to the wonderful binders that used to come with the Legends, but not terrible either. We will still sell Merlin to some customers that will give up features for reliability for now, but I hope to be able to phase it out shortly as the IPO grows.
GSmitherman
Programmer
I agree with alot of the postings on here. I have programmed and installed both the Legend/Magix and IP Office. Both are good systems and will work only as good as the people who program/install them.
As far as VOIP, this is the way of the future. I also program and install the ShoreTel system. This system is highly reliable and is total VOIP. It is rated as 99.999% reliable. The IP Office is much more flexible in the programming, but the ShoreTel is much more stable and easier to install. The ShoreTel has alot of backups. If the processing unit fails, the second module will handle the processing duties. All ports on the processing unit will transfer to available ports. In the traditional PBX world if the processor fails you are screwed.
If you do your homework, you can go to VOIP systems without too many headaches. The only issue I have with Avaya is the fact they put systems out in the market knowing there are issues.
As far as VOIP, this is the way of the future. I also program and install the ShoreTel system. This system is highly reliable and is total VOIP. It is rated as 99.999% reliable. The IP Office is much more flexible in the programming, but the ShoreTel is much more stable and easier to install. The ShoreTel has alot of backups. If the processing unit fails, the second module will handle the processing duties. All ports on the processing unit will transfer to available ports. In the traditional PBX world if the processor fails you are screwed.
If you do your homework, you can go to VOIP systems without too many headaches. The only issue I have with Avaya is the fact they put systems out in the market knowing there are issues.
kristiandg
Programmer
The fact is, the Magix (lets face it, Legend) was a fine system in its day. And those who have been with it for a long time don't want to see it go. However, the IPO is a decent system for ITS day (now) and people/vendors who are content in longing for the days of all-TDM will find themselves out of the industry faster than you can imagine.
The complaint that the IPO has had 3 or 4 releases in the past few months, although true, is illogical to see as a problem. Definity has had 13 up-issues in the past 9 months. Of course, THOSE are unpublish and the only REAL way you find out is when you install a new system, as it comes from the factory with the newer software. The more complex, the more of a possibility of a bug. Its just the nature of the beast. At least they're willing to ship out maintenance releases (and so far, at no charge) to those in need. How many systems out there would allow you to go from 1.0 to 3.0 (thats 9 releases) w/o charging a dime?
I like both systems, but the fact is the Magix is past its time. So much so that the IPO has mimicked the light patterns (actually of a Definity, but darn close) and it will support the Magix phones. Not bad for an upgrade path since the phones are usually the most expensive part of a replacement.
Hope this puts some things into perspective...
Kris G.
The complaint that the IPO has had 3 or 4 releases in the past few months, although true, is illogical to see as a problem. Definity has had 13 up-issues in the past 9 months. Of course, THOSE are unpublish and the only REAL way you find out is when you install a new system, as it comes from the factory with the newer software. The more complex, the more of a possibility of a bug. Its just the nature of the beast. At least they're willing to ship out maintenance releases (and so far, at no charge) to those in need. How many systems out there would allow you to go from 1.0 to 3.0 (thats 9 releases) w/o charging a dime?
I like both systems, but the fact is the Magix is past its time. So much so that the IPO has mimicked the light patterns (actually of a Definity, but darn close) and it will support the Magix phones. Not bad for an upgrade path since the phones are usually the most expensive part of a replacement.
Hope this puts some things into perspective...
Kris G.
i do like the fact that the new releases are free, that is a positive, kind of the silver lining on the cloud.
i would however prefer if they put out one less major release with new features, etc., and put out one more maint release for each major release along the way.
i know new releases with new features are great for selling new systems, but who really implements the new release until after the maint. release which follows it come out anyway. i think most implementors stay one major release back anyway, until the maint. release comes out, unless the system is sold on the new release features.
besides that, if they charged for new major releases, they might sell one, but who would pay for the next one to fix the issues with the last one.
You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.
i would however prefer if they put out one less major release with new features, etc., and put out one more maint release for each major release along the way.
i know new releases with new features are great for selling new systems, but who really implements the new release until after the maint. release which follows it come out anyway. i think most implementors stay one major release back anyway, until the maint. release comes out, unless the system is sold on the new release features.
besides that, if they charged for new major releases, they might sell one, but who would pay for the next one to fix the issues with the last one.
You do not always get what you pay for, but you never get what you do not pay for.
One major reason you don't find those new features on the Legend/Magix is Avaya never wrote the software for them!
The switch is only as good as the software that is running the hardware, minus hardware limitations...
The biggest fault I find with the Legend/Magix is the software from my experience!
....JIM....
The switch is only as good as the software that is running the hardware, minus hardware limitations...
The biggest fault I find with the Legend/Magix is the software from my experience!
....JIM....
dagwoodsystems
Programmer
Call me a dinosaur if you want, but I LIKE phone systems that have a proven track record, regardless of any programming idiosyncracies.
Avaya has been working very hard to catch-up with the IP stability of ShoreTel and Mitel. Even so, nobody is going to convince me that in light of all I've seen since the inception of IP Office (customer lawsuits, three software patches in a week's time, new motherboard spins, etc) that this is anything short of a Frankenstein box which is being beta-tested on the customer premesis. To this day, there are STILL limitations on bridged appearances, dropping members of conference calls and other very, very serious flaws (especially for larger customers) that are not seen in competetive systems.
Sure, I know that the product has improved tremendously, AND I really believe that a large number of you have had successfull installations. Even so, I take great offense to the "figure it out" attitude that I've read here. For most of my professional life, I've had a foot on both data and voice islands and I'm far from being an idiot.
Look at the big picture: We no longer have the engineering of Bell Labs or anything resembling the kind of support we used to receive from Denver (except this self-run forum). What we have is a British-made voice mux that is feverishly being reworked so that Avaya doesn't look like an also-ran in the IP voice space. In my view, corporate is now run by a bunch of "suits" who outsource the engineering and (with the exception of Partner) have no interest in small or mid-sized business anymore, which is where MAGIX and IP Office are playing. If I didn't know better, I'd think this company was being groomed so that it could be sold.
Yes, this is an emotionally laden topic. Perhaps MerlinMan or other seasoned tech can offer a few rational comments to close this thread gracefully.
Avaya has been working very hard to catch-up with the IP stability of ShoreTel and Mitel. Even so, nobody is going to convince me that in light of all I've seen since the inception of IP Office (customer lawsuits, three software patches in a week's time, new motherboard spins, etc) that this is anything short of a Frankenstein box which is being beta-tested on the customer premesis. To this day, there are STILL limitations on bridged appearances, dropping members of conference calls and other very, very serious flaws (especially for larger customers) that are not seen in competetive systems.
Sure, I know that the product has improved tremendously, AND I really believe that a large number of you have had successfull installations. Even so, I take great offense to the "figure it out" attitude that I've read here. For most of my professional life, I've had a foot on both data and voice islands and I'm far from being an idiot.
Look at the big picture: We no longer have the engineering of Bell Labs or anything resembling the kind of support we used to receive from Denver (except this self-run forum). What we have is a British-made voice mux that is feverishly being reworked so that Avaya doesn't look like an also-ran in the IP voice space. In my view, corporate is now run by a bunch of "suits" who outsource the engineering and (with the exception of Partner) have no interest in small or mid-sized business anymore, which is where MAGIX and IP Office are playing. If I didn't know better, I'd think this company was being groomed so that it could be sold.
Yes, this is an emotionally laden topic. Perhaps MerlinMan or other seasoned tech can offer a few rational comments to close this thread gracefully.
i would say that, of all the bad reports you hear of the ipo here, there are thousands of ipo's in the field that are not having issue. as with everything, you hear about the bad situations, and the good keep their mouth shut.
50 percent of my implementation customers have written customer recomendation and satisfaction letters to my employer, and another 25 percent are in the process of considering implementing an additional ipo, or ipo's at other locations.
that leaves 50 percent that did not take it upon themselves to write a customer reference letter to my employer about their satisfaction with the product implemented. 75 percent are single site small business of which 1/3 use remote phones. the remainder are multi-site organizations which have, or are considering adding additional ipo's at other sites. none of the remaining 25 percent are giving a bad report on the implementation, just have not taken it upon themselves to write a customer recomendation or feedback letter to my employer, or to request a bid for another implementation which i consider the best recomendation you can recieve.
now that may be a reflection of the manifestation of my charismatic personality, and charm. however if you have read my posts on here, you might find that less than probable. i may be wrong about my lack of charismatic control over people, and if so, send me all your money, small bills, no checks, money orders made out to cash are permissable.
i do not have thousands of implementations under my belt to have run into every possible situation or possible issue with the ipo. i do however believe that i am not a supernatural implementor, and have had no formal training on the ipo. i have however, taken 90 percent on my own time, and opportunity to read, study, read, study, bench test, play with, educate, complete assessments, complete product authorizations from avaya, and am preparing to take the one remaining obstacle, the 3rd party test for my aca.
if the implementor is not product authorized by avaya, then the system is a bootleg implementation, and does not reflect on the ipo or avaya, but the implementor. if the customer allowed someone who is not avaya authorized to implement the ipo, then they have no one to blame but themselves for accepting an unqualified implementation.
i wonder how many issues reported here are from non-product authorized implementors, or administrators who are not avaya product authorized. i am not saying you must be product authorized to work on the ipo successfully, but if you do not take the p.a.'s then you are not at a level that the manufacturer says is knowledgable to do service. that means you are just hunting and pecking, and then complaining when the piano does not sound like a trained concert pianist is at the keys.
now, that said, for avaya product authorized implementors what perecentage of your implementations are having mission critical issues with things that you are avaya product authorized to implement, service, and support.
then the same question for those that are not avaya product authorized for what you are doing.
for customer administrators, probably i.t. people. are you working on systems you are not certified on, product authorized on, or experienced with enough to negate the need for proper training. by that, i mean are you as trained on the ipo as you would expect a consultant to be if they were going to be administering yout network, servers, etc., without having your qualified people watching over their work.
just curious, and wondering what the proper perspective on all the issues reported here are properly to be categorized in. i realize that in the i.t world, even trained, experienced, certified proffessionals have issues in the real world that they have to address, that class did not teach them about.
50 percent of my implementation customers have written customer recomendation and satisfaction letters to my employer, and another 25 percent are in the process of considering implementing an additional ipo, or ipo's at other locations.
that leaves 50 percent that did not take it upon themselves to write a customer reference letter to my employer about their satisfaction with the product implemented. 75 percent are single site small business of which 1/3 use remote phones. the remainder are multi-site organizations which have, or are considering adding additional ipo's at other sites. none of the remaining 25 percent are giving a bad report on the implementation, just have not taken it upon themselves to write a customer recomendation or feedback letter to my employer, or to request a bid for another implementation which i consider the best recomendation you can recieve.
now that may be a reflection of the manifestation of my charismatic personality, and charm. however if you have read my posts on here, you might find that less than probable. i may be wrong about my lack of charismatic control over people, and if so, send me all your money, small bills, no checks, money orders made out to cash are permissable.
i do not have thousands of implementations under my belt to have run into every possible situation or possible issue with the ipo. i do however believe that i am not a supernatural implementor, and have had no formal training on the ipo. i have however, taken 90 percent on my own time, and opportunity to read, study, read, study, bench test, play with, educate, complete assessments, complete product authorizations from avaya, and am preparing to take the one remaining obstacle, the 3rd party test for my aca.
if the implementor is not product authorized by avaya, then the system is a bootleg implementation, and does not reflect on the ipo or avaya, but the implementor. if the customer allowed someone who is not avaya authorized to implement the ipo, then they have no one to blame but themselves for accepting an unqualified implementation.
i wonder how many issues reported here are from non-product authorized implementors, or administrators who are not avaya product authorized. i am not saying you must be product authorized to work on the ipo successfully, but if you do not take the p.a.'s then you are not at a level that the manufacturer says is knowledgable to do service. that means you are just hunting and pecking, and then complaining when the piano does not sound like a trained concert pianist is at the keys.
now, that said, for avaya product authorized implementors what perecentage of your implementations are having mission critical issues with things that you are avaya product authorized to implement, service, and support.
then the same question for those that are not avaya product authorized for what you are doing.
for customer administrators, probably i.t. people. are you working on systems you are not certified on, product authorized on, or experienced with enough to negate the need for proper training. by that, i mean are you as trained on the ipo as you would expect a consultant to be if they were going to be administering yout network, servers, etc., without having your qualified people watching over their work.
just curious, and wondering what the proper perspective on all the issues reported here are properly to be categorized in. i realize that in the i.t world, even trained, experienced, certified proffessionals have issues in the real world that they have to address, that class did not teach them about.
Colorado.
But to the issues being raised:
I really have no experience with the IPO, and really do not want any. I have vowed to NOT LEARN it, in an effort to eventually get out of the business. After all, I retired once after 36 years in the business.
My info is all here say about how things have gone wrong on certain installs.
I have no knowledge of this System, but I do know that certain government groups want nothing to do with this type of system.
When I worked at Avaya, and part of my job was to talk to Bell Labs about "issues" of the Merlin, Legend and eventually the Magix, I had very little influence on what decisions were made in the way of product life span.
Those decisions are made by committees using Marketing Studies and other tools.
The decision to eliminate the Magix, in my opinion, was a bit premature, but no one at Avaya asked me, nor would I expect them to.
It seems to me that the decision had to be made if for no other reason than to eliminate multiple manufacturing facilities.
Remember, Avaya sold off the manufacturing arm a while back.
I hate to see a STABLE telephone system go, but as bad as the IPO seems to be, I recall the early days of LEGEND R1, which was a REAL DOG. Eventually, however, the bugs got worked out and programming and installation experience improved and the product evolved to be what it is today.
Perhaps, if we wait long enough, IPO will get there as well.
But to the issues being raised:
I really have no experience with the IPO, and really do not want any. I have vowed to NOT LEARN it, in an effort to eventually get out of the business. After all, I retired once after 36 years in the business.
My info is all here say about how things have gone wrong on certain installs.
I have no knowledge of this System, but I do know that certain government groups want nothing to do with this type of system.
When I worked at Avaya, and part of my job was to talk to Bell Labs about "issues" of the Merlin, Legend and eventually the Magix, I had very little influence on what decisions were made in the way of product life span.
Those decisions are made by committees using Marketing Studies and other tools.
The decision to eliminate the Magix, in my opinion, was a bit premature, but no one at Avaya asked me, nor would I expect them to.
It seems to me that the decision had to be made if for no other reason than to eliminate multiple manufacturing facilities.
Remember, Avaya sold off the manufacturing arm a while back.
I hate to see a STABLE telephone system go, but as bad as the IPO seems to be, I recall the early days of LEGEND R1, which was a REAL DOG. Eventually, however, the bugs got worked out and programming and installation experience improved and the product evolved to be what it is today.
Perhaps, if we wait long enough, IPO will get there as well.
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