Mascarade 1

[CrystalStart]

Ia "Mascara" word sub product of "Mascarade"?
"When my eyes not mascaraded I look like 12 years old" - is this is a valid saying?

 

[CrystalStart]

I was trying to find out if one heard
"When my eyes not mascaraded I look like 12 years old"
would you consider it creative speaking or poor choice of words?

 

[RodKnowlton]

SantaMufasa,

The case you make doesn't refute Thadeus's statement, it adds a caveat of the form "Poor grammarians are more likely to be perceived as presenting incorrect or questionable data than are good grammarians."

This is unfortunate, as it is a subtle manifestation of False Authority Syndrome and can give a good grammarian that is not expert in another area an advantage over an expert in the area that is a poor grammarian.

It is fortunate, though, for the members of this forum. I'm not saying that anyone in here is a false authority, just that the whole point of this forum is to learn to communicate more professionally, thereby using FAS to our advantage. All other things being equal, the poor grammarian will be at the disadvantage in pursuit of a job or contract.

Rod Knowlton
IBM Certified Advanced Technical Expert pSeries and AIX 5L
CompTIA Linux+
CompTIA Security+

 

[CrystalStart]

Rod, with all the respect wouldn't your frase
"can give a good grammarian that is not expert in another area an advantage over an expert in the area that is a poor grammarian"
be more correct as
can give a GOOD grammarian that is expert in the area an advantage over an expert in the same area that is a POOR grammarian.
???
I believe poor grammarian BUT expert will prevail because what's the use for poor expert who speaks well?
Thanks

 

[CajunCenturion]

CrystalStart - I would judge your statement about mascara to be a poor choice of words. I would prefer something along the lines of "Without mascara, I look 12 years old."

I also agree with RodKnowlton's assessment of the False Authority Syndrome. It is about perception. How many people get to the interview if the resume has spelling errors or is poorly written? It's about that first impression. Eventually the non-grammatical expert, if given the chance, will supplant the grammatical novice, but perceptions can be hard to overcome.

Good Luck
--------------
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[CrystalStart]

CC,
in US where millions of techies barely speak English but doing obviously a great job (considering the legions) Rod's statement had lost it's validity.
Recruiters also are not 100% certified in Language and literature, so there is no more place for "grammarians have it all". Sad? I don't know...

 

[CajunCenturion]

Are you suggesting that spelling and grammar are no longer important, or relevant on resumes, because recruiters are not certified in language and literature?

Do you believe that spelling and grammar affect how others perceive you, especially with respect to the written word?

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[SantaMufasa]

I dunno...there's just something special about someone's being articulate. Even though neither one has medical training, if I had to make a choice between the two, of who would perform surgery on me, I believe I would choose Sidney Poitier over Sean "P Diddy" Combs.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[SilentAiche]

[blue]Guess who's coming to surgery?[/blue] I believe a third opinion would be in order.

Act 1, Scene 1:

Portier: "Sir, prior to us putting you under, might you be good enough to describe your kidney?"

Tim

 

[CrystalStart]

CC,
to your question:
Are you suggesting that spelling and grammar are no longer important, or relevant on resumes, because recruiters are not certified in language and literature?

NO NO and one more NO!
I do NOT suggest that spelling and grammar are no longer important. It IS and hopefully always will be.
I am just giving "TODAY" reality check to those who still do not see that times had changed and you can not pretend you haven't noticed.

CC also wrote:
Do you believe that spelling and grammar affect how others perceive you, especially with respect to the written word?

Oh, yeah! BUT! Others who? Grammarians!!! So it suppose to be altered to:
Do you believe that spelling and grammar affect how other grammarians perceive you, especially with respect to the written word?

I think we both right - you as an old school perfectionist who will fight for his believes to the end
and
I am as the one who finds strict rules annoying and willing to compromise (to the point though):-D

And God Bless America!

 

[CrystalStart]

...and Canada and UK and Sweden and Spain [insert whoever I haven't mentioned]

 

[SantaMufasa]

Yo, yo, CS, we be coo, homey.


Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)

http://www.dasages.com

Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.

 

[CrystalStart]

WE BE COO???
I said I agree to compromise to the POINT. we be coo it beyound the point but funny though :-D what is it anyway?

 

[RodKnowlton]

in US where millions of techies barely speak English but doing obviously a great job (considering the legions) Rod's statement had lost it's validity.

First, it seems to me that "the legions" are evidence that techies aren't, on average, doing a great job. The higher the average productivity, the fewer would be needed.

Second, I'll concede that grammatically based FAS is waning in the U.S., thanks to our overall national decline in grammaticality [and literacy and numeracy (I sat through a meeting last week where a Systems Analyst referred to a 46-4 split as 80/20 <shudder>)].

I did, though, say "all other things being equal". Given two identically qualified and personable applicants, the job is not going to be given to the one that litters their interview with double negatives and verb/noun disagreements.

Rod Knowlton
IBM Certified Advanced Technical Expert pSeries and AIX 5L
CompTIA Linux+
CompTIA Security+

 

[CajunCenturion]

CrystalStart - We agree on most points. We agree that grammar and spelling is important and hopefully that it will always be so. We also agree that strict adherence to rules can be annoying. We also agree that today, spelling and grammar do not seem as important as they used to be. We disagree on whether or not that is a good thing.

I think we also disagree on how many people, and who are those people, who do judge, even if subconsciously, based on spelling and grammar. I agree that it is not a matter of right or wrong; there are really no facts to dispute. It is simply a difference of opinion about subjective judgments.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Thadeus]

Given two identically qualified and personable applicants, the job is not going to be given to the one that litters their interview with double negatives and verb/noun disagreements.

Somehow this assumes that the hiring manager hears double negatives and verb/noun disagreements as wrong.

Years ago, as a word processor, I had many managers who would hand me documents to enter that were just filled with grammatical, spelling errors and even logical errors. In my role, I would make those things go away.

I think this is the thrust of CrystalStart's posts.
When the hiring managers are either poor grammarians themselves or ESL then candidates may have a better chance of being chosen based on merit.

Lastly (for now ), I don't believe that our society is in a national decline. In the past few decades we have attempted to educate a higher percentage of our population than ever before. Additionally, we churn out a much larger number of college graduates who take on professional roles than ever before. This means a wider variety of grammatical (as well as other) skills will make it into the corporate environment (i.e. board rooms, newsletters, websites, etc.).

So yes, a smaller percentage of college grads will remember and always apply the rules governing the use of i.e. and e.g., but only because the overall number of college grads has increased exponentially.

NOTE: It may sound as though I am stating fact. This is convenience only. Everything above should be considered my opinion.

~Thadeus

 

[CrystalStart]

RodK, CC and Thadeoosh,
I am feeling in sync at last. Thanks

To prolong discussion:
it seems to me that "the legions" are evidence that techies aren't, on average, doing a great job.

I always thought it is because IT jobs on average is a very time consuming and demand is raising, am I wrong here?

 

[SilentAiche]

Thadeus,

Everything above should be considered my opinion.

Even the stuff other people said?

Tim

 

[RodKnowlton]

NOTE: It may sound as though I am stating fact. This is convenience only. Everything above should be considered my opinion.

I should have a variation of this tattooed on my forehead( s/above/I say/).

There's certainly enough room (and reason).

Rod Knowlton
IBM Certified Advanced Technical Expert pSeries and AIX 5L
CompTIA Linux+
CompTIA Security+

 

[AnotherHiggins]

So yes, a smaller percentage of college grads will remember and always apply the rules governing the use of i.e. and e.g., but only because the overall number of college grads has increased exponentially.

That makes zero sense. The number of college graduates who forget how to employ 'i.e.' vs. 'e.g.' might increase as a result of the total set increasing, but the percentages should stay the same (all other things being equal).

But your point is taken.

CrystalStart,

Don't kid yourself by thinking that only grammarians care about proper grammar/spelling/punctuation.

I think exceptions are often made for ESL candidates - and rightly so. But given that most candidates have to go through multiple interviews with different members of management/HR before being hired, I absolutely agree with CajunCenturion.

Let's consider two candidates with similar qualifications:
[ul][li]Candidate 1:[/li]
[ul][li]Has a well-presented résumé[/li]
[li]Verbally expresses him/herself well[/li][/ul]
[li]Candidate 2:[/li]
[ul][li]Has an error-riddled résumé[/li]
[li]Uses the vernacular during the interview, replete with "double negatives and verb/noun disagreements" (to quote RodKnowlton)[/li][/ul][/ul]

Who do you suppose is going to be hired?

P.s. CrystalStart, when SantaMufasa said, "we be coo", he was saying, "we're cool". Also: please, please consider using some method to easily identify when you are quoting someone. You're killing me here.

[tt]-John[/tt]
________________________
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[SilentAiche]

Also: please, please consider using some method to easily identify when you are quoting someone.

The trick is to simply type the name of the person being quoted, without parentheses, after the first &quot;quote&quot;

[ignore]

Put Quote Here

[/ignore]


Tim