Maintaining an 'air-gap' with subordinates 4

[stackdump]

Hi all,

I hope someone can help me out with something...

I had a discussion today with a subordinate who has recently started managing people for the first time. Things are going ok, but some problems are surfacing.

In discussing these problems with him, I think one of his problems is that he gets 'too close' to his subordinates. By that, I mean that he turns subordinates into his 'buddies'.

Now... I am all for employees enjoying their day and having some social fun, but... I am also of the opinion that to be a successful manager, the manager needs to put a bit of distance between themselves and their employees. One day he might need to let one or more of his team go, he might need to push his team to deliver something to a very tight deadline, or make a significant increase in productivity etc. So my main reason being that subordinates need to take their bosses seriously, or put another way, managers need to command some respect.

In looking though every management book I have, I cannot find one single reference to the 'correct' relationship a manager should have with their subordinates. I would like to find something that recommends that managers do not get too close to subordinates, but I am also open to the possibility that my opinion on this matter may be wrong.

Can anyone give me any pointers? A particular book or web page perhaps?

 

[Craig0201]

Stackdump,

Top management on your own part.

C

 

[VVVA]

I'm really really young in the workforce. So what I'm saying is probably worthless, but I ran into a situation where I stepped back and evaluated the leadership in my company, and tried to figure out why I didn't like it. I came to the conclusion that it boils down the priorities of a manager. A good leader, (think a coach or general) has his priorities in order. He\she is concerned about

1.) The goal. No matter what, the mission gets accomplished. No matter how many of his soldiers the enemy kills, the general is more concerned about the mission than his men.

2.) His men.

3.) Advancing himself.

4.) All the other goals. (Making friends with his men, being popular, ect)

This is just my personal opinion, & may be off. But I do think it boils down to priorities, not "style." Every leader is gonna have a different style, the priorities should be very similar.

 

[AndrewTait]

I worked for one guy who became a good friend, and I still keep in touch with him now, some 7 years after I left the company.

He was one of the guys who would let me get on with what I was doing in my own way, as long as he knew what it was I was doing. If there was a problem with what I was doing, he would say so. If he needed me to look at something else, he would say so. If he needed me to do overtime, he would say so.

I gave him weekends of unpaid overtime in order to get jobs done, and after a short while he very rarely had to ask for anything, as I was able to work out for myself what it was he wanted from me. He still kept an eye on me, and asked about the office to see if what I was doing was up to scratch.

It also worked the other way, he and I would regularly go to the pub after work on a Friday, and the drinks were on him. I also used to get to use his company car when he was on holiday.

This guy is the only boss I have worked for that I would consider working for again. When I left the company, he knew for months that I was looking, to the extent that he would point out new positions that he thought I would be good at, and gave me additional time off to attend interviews.

=======================================
I got to the edge of sanity....then i fell off
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[Welshbird]

Andrew - I have had a boss like that in the past.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all work for someone like that again?

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[sstoppel]

willif said:

"But it only works because I'm quite happy to switch from employee mode to friend mode and back again."

Unfortunately, not everyone is. My boss and a previous employee were buddy buddy in off hours, and whenever the subordinate got any sort of reprimand or instruction he would go into a funk, thinking his friend didn't like him anymore.

 

[Welshbird]

sstoppl: I agree completely.

For a team to function as a team with its leader, both the leader and the team have to make the appropriate effort.

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[AndrewTait]

My boss and a previous employee were buddy buddy in off hours, and whenever the subordinate got any sort of reprimand or instruction he would go into a funk, thinking his friend didn't like him anymore.

You have to be able to separate the two relationships - One a working professional relationship, and the other the outside friendship.

The guy I mentioned above and I had some moments where I didn't agree with what he was telling me, and he didn't agree with what I was telling him. We had one hell of an arguement in the server room over it, but still ended up down the pub together come 5pm.

=======================================
I got to the edge of sanity....then i fell off
======================================

 

[aarenot]

There is nothing wrong with having a friend relationship with your subordinates. Now that does not mean that you can not get after, or give them consequences for their actions. I mean a real friend is not going to put you in that position as his manager, and if he does, then drop the hammer on your friend.

Let's be real just because a subordinate is your friend does not mean you can not come down on him. If that were true, your friend could sleep with your wife, and you would not do anyhting about it.

MAXWELL
DEVELOPING THE LEADER WITHIN YOU

DEVELOPING THE LEADERS AROUND YOU

A couple great books, that any person would benefit greatly from, being a manager or not. Leadership is about influence, not power.


Best leader I have ever read about was Jesus Christ, and I think he was close enough to wash his followers feet. He only had 12 followers at his death, and look how far they got throughout the world after he was already gone away.

The true test of a leader, look behind you.

 

[wlemery]

Tell the project leader to stop smiling and laughing during the meetings he has with the team. Tell him to stop socializing with the team after hours. He's doing too much of both. His other problem may well be that when he demands something of a subordinate, and the subordinate responds with anything that is not enthusiastically cooperative, John needs to be able to say that this is the way things are going to be, and if you don't like it, take it up the ladder. When that happens, John's manager should back his decision.

I like the people I work with, but I will not associate with them outside of work on anything resembling a regular or frequent basis. Work is work, and if you don't think so, just win one round too many of darts, pool or poker. Especially if you're playing for real money.

 

[KenCunningham]

Presumably the moral of that tale is never play work colleagues for money. Have you stung or been stung to sound so crotchety?

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[QuestingElf]

You requested a book. I strongly recommend _Herding Cats: A Primer for Programmers who Lead Programmers_.

It covers the mindset a truly competent manager must develop in order to lead a team of programmers. It's especially geared towards those people who were once great coders and must now lead others to become great coders.

It's published by Apress whose books I've found helpful with their realistic combination of technical prowess meeting how the real world operates.

 

[wlemery]

I watched as another employee was given the choice of resignation or termination after winning a significant amount of money from the boss's son at cards.

 

[aarenot]

Time to sue the boss for wrongful dismissal, and he would win. At least in the USA, you can't fire your employee for winning money at cards from your son.

 

[SQLSister]

That isn't stricly speaking true that he would win. A smart company does not give a reason for dismissal. In many states, this is legally acceptable because the law is that the company can do away with your services at their convenience. If they give a reason and you can prove the reason is not valid or that they fired you for actions they allowed other people, etc, then you can win. If they give no reason for the dismissal, it is almost impossible to prove the case that you were wrongfully fired.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared