Looking for pricing advice

[jamsa]

Here is a project that I am bidding on.

http://www.treeoflife.nu

It is a coding nightmare! I was unable to convince the client to start from scratch, which is what it needs.

Basically, they want to do a cosmetic redesign and change the look and feel of the site, keeping most of the content as it is.

I am fairly new at bidding and figuring pricing and would really really appreciate any help that anyone is willing to offer. Just take a quick look at the site, the code and give me some tips, please?

so much appreciation!!!

james

 

[coldfused]

James don't post your potential clients here, some will not be nice and bid your job.

No hard core coding there at all seemed like, the page was built with go live thats why you see all that code, go-live generated crap.

Just alot of pages with alot of text, would be a simple re-design of the interface, set up a little backend to process a form or two and your shopping cart. Copy and paste exsisiting copy, reformat to suit your new design.

So I would say charge a honest fee for your hourly work, or you could go a flat rate of a few grand.

I guess what ever your times worth to ya.
(might be better for this though to get a nice hourly rate, seems very tedious)

My opinion.

http://www.orlandomediasolutions.com

carlsatterwhite@orlandomediasolutions.com

 

[cian]

Jamsa,

virt2002 got there before me. Don't post potential clients here!!! I could tell you to bid ¤2000 then go and bid ¤1500 myself!

As for cost, it depends on (but not only on)
-who the client is
-who you are, expreience, knowledge, training etc
-the standard expected of the site
-number of pages/number of graphics
-languages used/database work etc
-etc

If this is one of your first jobs you're probably hungy so charge less to try to get the job. Quote an overall project cost and make sure to outline in a contract before hand what those costs will get. Also outline a project map, when the client can give feedback and make design changes etc
You can't allow the client to make changes every 5 minutes, for example.

You could build you cost something like:
basic template: ¤200 1 page
coding other pages: ¤25 per page
database work: ¤40 per hour
scripting: ¤¤¤
time: ¤¤¤

Don't give the client a cost breakdown, just the project price.

The above costs are just an example, you could charge double but I get the impression that to get any of these bidding jobs you need to quote really low. For that reason I personally would not bid on any jobs (maybe).


É
::

http://www.endamcg.com

 

[Wullie]

Hi guys,

This is one of those delicate subjects.

A respectable company will weigh the quality and features that you are offering and not just decide to go with someone because they are the cheapest.

Don't offer a really low price just so that you are the cheapest, this can seriously backfire on you.

In the recent past, I lost out on a major contract because I put in a bid which was substantially lower than the tenders that my competitors submitted.

I was asked to submit a tender for this project by the company in question. After taking into account all the factors of the project, I quoted an honest price for the work that was required. I would still have made a healthy profit from the project had I been chosen.

This particular company had over-specified their requirements in the tender, which I later confirmed after a lengthy discussion with the managing director of the company.

When I submitted my tender, I took this into account and prepared the documents to send to them.

Out of over 50 tenders submitted, I made it into the last 4. In the end, I lost out on the contract because they were wary as to why my tender was so much lower than the others. This put doubts into their mind as to why I could afford to offer it cheaper, a much lower price can convey that you offer a lower quality service.

They made their decision and I called to discuss why my offer had been rejected. I then convinced the client that the price they were quoted by me should have been an average price for the overall project, and basically that they were throwing their money away by accepting one of the other tenders.

I knew before I called that the contract had already been awarded to another company, so all our talks were basically just to give me feedback for the reasoning behind the rejection.

If you ever get rejected for a project, make sure you call them and ask if they could give any general pointers as to why it was rejected, this saves you from the same problems in the future and allows you to totally rework your strategy if required.

Morale of the story:

Don't offer a price for the sake of it, create an honest account of how long you will take with this project, any special software or fonts etc that you will need to buy for this project, then work out what this project is worth to you. How much would you expect to pay if you were in the company's shoes?

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.mailtosanta.co.uk

The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell

 

[RISTMO]

Yeah. You got to bid high enough, but not too high. There is one site,

http://www.hussmann.com.

The design company who got the job was paid $40,000 for making the site, gaving a year of maintenance (up to 40 hours?) and hosting it. I personally wouldn't have dreamed of going that high. $7,000-$10,000 would have been closer to my range. But, like in Wullie's example, I would not have gotten the job, (I wasn't bidding anyway) because I was way low for what that company was expecting. Don't take this the wrong way--I'm not saying to multiply all of your rates by 5, but you have to know your client. This happened to be a big company expecting a lot more.

Is it a non-profit organization? If so, you will probably have to charge a lot less...Unless you're talking about some of the big NPOs....

If they are a small company that wants a basic website (under 20 pages) with a small online database-driven store, $5,000 might be a safe bid.

If they are a big company, they will be able to, and probably much more willing to pay a lot.--Are you designing the next Amazon?

You have to know your client and the other bidders. Research how big the company is, find out how much it pays for different services they've already bought. How much profit does it make from its sales? How much do they need the new design?

Research the other designers bidding on the project...like me...Just kidding ;-), but they are right, sooner or later you will get more than just us friendly nice guys viewing your potential clients. See how much the other bidders often charge for a site. Either try to get the contract by charging about as much as they would but with giving them extra features in your package, or else charge a little bit less and try to sell your price.

Just my ideas, but good luck.
Rick -----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.arabchurch.com

 

[jamsa]

Thank you all for your response. I'm just trying to get a bette feel for pricing the job. I guess I should have mentioned that this is an acquaintence of mine who runs the marketing dept. He and I have already come to an agreement for me to do the work.

Anyway onward and upward!
thanks again.
james

 

[tanderso]

You have to be careful not to specify specific prices here. It would most likely be considered price-fixing for a group of industry competitors to be suggesting and agreeing on set prices, especially when specific bids are involved. This is of course highly illegal. Read this Dept of Justice document:

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm

My advice is to determine how long it will take you, not how much you should bid. Then once you have a handle on the hours involved, decide on how much you think you are worth per hour for this job. If it is a per-hour job, quote this rate. If it is a fixed price job, then add an additional 1/3 to your expected hours and charge that. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[RISTMO]

If you were saying that to me, I'm sorry. I didn't know I was doing anything illegal. I remember hearing something about no posting prices before and someone posted an article (this is all on a different message board system) but after more discussion, we found other articles and decided that posting prices was not illegal.

Rick -----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ristmo.com/

http://www.arabchurch.com/

 

[Wullie]

It would only be considered price fixing if more than one person in this thread bidded on this particular project.

Also, the laws for this vary worldwide, so certain users may be held under this while others are not, even though the server is in the US.

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.freshlookdesign.com

http://www.mailtosanta.co.uk

The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell

 

[tanderso]

I'm no lawyer, but it is my interpretation of the law, articles about the law, and antitrust court decisions that it is price fixing to establish a rate on any project by consulting your competitors, even if they are not bidding on the same project at the particular moment of discussion. Also, this forum lives in archives indefinitely, which makes this a price fixing resource, not just a simple discussion.

"Price fixing and bid rigging are among the group of antitrust offenses that are considered per se unreasonable restraints of trade. The courts have reasoned that these practices, which invariably have the effect of raising prices to consumers, have no legitimate justification and lack any redeeming competitive purpose and should, therefore, be considered unlawful without any further analysis of their reasonableness, economic justification, or other factors."

Each proprietor must set their rates according to what is justifiable to themselves only, not to competitors. So in discussions such as this, it should be reasonable to discuss HOW to set prices (ie how to justify to oneself and the client), but not WHAT the prices should be.

Certainly not all parties are subject to the same laws such as the Sherman Antitrust Act in the United States, however most 1st world countries have similar laws, and even if yours doesn't, then you would be involving others in illegal activity even if it is not illegal for you. Further, it may be cause to bring action against the forum itself.

I'm no "police man" around here, and can't enforce anything, so go ahead and continue the discussion if you prefer. However, I'm not going to take any further part in it, and I'd simply like to warn you about possible consequences. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[coldfused]

Take a vacation!

http://www.orlandomediasolutions.com

carlsatterwhite@orlandomediasolutions.com

 

[cian]

Tom,
Interesting point, hoewver, it could be seen anyway that the people here are only giving their opinions of what someone could charge in general for a web site design. We're not agreeing prices or telling anyone what to charge for a design. And we all have our own opinions on what to charge, there's no chance we could actually all agree on a proce anyway!
And as Wullie said, international laws vary.
Grey area though, isn't it?

É
::

http://www.endamcg.com

 

[tanderso]

"The agreement need not be embodied in express or formal contractual statements. It must merely constitute some form of mutual understanding..." Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[Kjonnnn]

One point you're leaving out about price-fixing.

Those who are alllegingly doing would need to have some type of strangle hold or monopoly (using that word loosely) on the particular area.

 

[tanderso]

Kjonnnn, that is not an issue. Price fixing does not require a monopoly. It only requires any number of competitors colluding about the prices they charge. Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[jamsa]

Well, this is all very interesting. However the burden of proof would be on the prosecution, whoever that may be. And I am wondering how any two or more parties could "fix" prices in this industry anyway. There are so many "designers" out there with so many levels of experience and pricing, there will always be higher and lower and in between.

This is just a friggin' forum for people to share ideas, tips and information. Personally, I find it very helpful to get some ballpark figures and to get a feel for the ranges and methods of how different designers arrive at their pricing policies.

Also, there are plenty of books out there that suggest pricing ranges. Are they trying to "fix" the market?

I believe the DOJ or whoever would have a very difficult case with this particular forum.

What do you think?

Anyway thanks for the input.

jamsa

 

[jamsa]

Well, I read the DOJ document. Now, I'm convinced this is no problem. Among the three things any prosecutor would have to prove here is that by a discussion such as this that an "unreasonable restraint" was being placed on the Web Design industry. Gentlemen, I think not. Go ahead and speak your minds freely.
jamsa

 

[coldfused]

I think nothing else needs to be said, I mean really whats the point of this?

It's obvious that this could no way be proven by what has been said in here. Just some web design guys helping a newbie. There are no secret after hours meetings to discuss this further.

relax, drink a beer, build a f-n shed in the back yard and grow plants or something........................

http://www.orlandomediasolutions.com

carlsatterwhite@orlandomediasolutions.com