Long Cat5e run 2

[corner40]

Hi Everyone
I have a run of cat5e of about 150meters that I need to do...It is an underground run and we were planning to use, obviously, outdoor cat5 cable...now I know the standard max length is 100meters but was wondering if anyone knows so way to achieve a longer run, ie specialty cables etc...as i said it is underground so a repeater is out of the question...fiber is not an option at this point as this is somewhat of a lower priority job...wireless is a possibility but we are up on a mountain and it could become flakey in the winter time...any suggestions would be great, and by that I mean any suggestions...we're just trying to round up as many options as possible...
thanks
jeremy

 

[smegecki]

I assume you plan to use this for data and not voice. Voice would be fine at that distance.

It's possible 10mb ethernet will work at that distance.

There are also LRE (long range ethernet) products that run 4000' feet over standard twisted pair(cat2,3,4).

Here is a link to sohoware.

http://www.sohoware.com/span/new_sohoware/newfiles/newsub/products_lonrange.htm

cisco has a solution also.

Do a google search for LRE.

hope this helps.

 

[smegecki]

Here is another solution 10mb ethernet to 5000' over cat 1,2,3.

http://www.netsys-direct.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=*NV-200EKIT

There are many options. look up VDSL (very high speed digital subscriber) as a key word.

 

[smegecki]

Your probably gonna have to cut and paste the link, it dropped the part number.

http://www.netsys-direct.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=*NV-200EKIT

 

[Jtodd]

Since you are looking outside the standards to make this work, and if you are planning on only running 100MB or even 10MB, install outdoor Cat6 (just to be safe) and not worry about it, because it will most likely work at 150m. No guarenttes about it working, but that's the point of standards right? I've got a couple runs on campus that are almost 400 feet, and Systimax is going to warrenty them at Cat5e speeds. As noted, they are using Cat6 cable, but they will work for 100MB.



PS. don't ask why or how these runs ended up this way, because I"ll just end up ranting about "telecom" consultants who work for electrical contractors and RCDD's who've never pulled cable a day in their life.

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[smegecki]

Jtodd it's funny what you say in your PS.

I worked at Georgetown University for 5 yrs. We had the same problems with book smart RCDD's that let stuff slide for kickbacks from the vendors, Did i say that out loud? I meant Florida State.

 

[Jtodd]

Oh, this has nothing to do with kickbacks. This is just on the leave of shear incompetence(and these guys are RCDDs!!!). Kickbacks I can deal with, because at least that makes sense (ignoring the wrong or right part of it), but just not knowing how to do your job, and being looked upon as 'knowing' because of a title or initials after your name.



Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[smegecki]

Yeah probably a lack of accountablity/checks and balances at your facility also.
The RCDD at GU didnt have to answer to anyone so he accepted anything.

He always had a really nice boat or new truck.

I hope noone at GU will read this.

 

[Jtodd]

Boy, and I thought I was doing well when I got a handfull of sample jacks or a patch panel out of a vendor!

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[corner40]

Well thanks for all the input...after having written this we were rummaging through our computer storage closet and discovered some old transition networks 10/100 base fiber media converter...my guess is that all that stuff had been there for years...we also have had 7km of fiber hanging around so we'll just use that...thanks again for all the suggestions...we weren't very familiar with LRE but were forced to learn about it today...that was great...when I said I was hoping to do it inexpensively I meant , really inexpensively...there are only three computers that we were trying to tie into the network and they have not been on up until now so it wasn't a big thing...just something that can make things a little easier for some people...

one last quick question...does anyone have any suggestions, opinions, on media converters, brands, models etc...relieability, inexpensive, etc is what we're looking for...it's for a completely unrelated project....
thanks again for all the help everyone...
Jeremy

 

[Jtodd]

Well good. You've ended up with the best solution anyway.

As for media converters, I've used a wide range of brands, and on only one occation had problems with one set right out of the box. Sent them back and got replacements. Other than that, I've had no issues. So I usually just go with what I can get on the cheep. I tend to lean toward IMC Networks just because there were the first one I found to have modular chassis based media converters. But that's about it for preferance.

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[dschartung]

The Cisco LRE works great. We use the Catalyst 2950 and have had only a couple problems. One, Cisco sent a bad switch with two dead ports. Two, make sure that you use dry copper pairs. Any moisture with affect the SNR and thats not good. We get 12mbit/sec at a 1/4 mile at 12ms with latency.

 

[daronwilson]

Wow we were poking at RCDD's and i missed my opportunity!

As Nixon said, "Let me say this about that".

First, I agree. Engineers/consultant with no practical experience are dangerous. Likewise, installers/cable pullers with no design/standards or networking savvy are dangerous as well.

Second, I agree. The RCDD is a design achievement. Keep in mind to get the certification you don't have to document experience pulling cable or making it work, you have to document experience designing networks AND pass a wicked test on the standards and products. BICSI does have installer courses and certifications.

Somewhere between good and evil are folks that have the following:

1. Knowhow and savvy about voice and data, they can hook up wires and make things run, they know what networking is and how to use it. In short, they make things work.

2. Experience - they have pulled cable, pulled fiber, terminated, programmed switches and routers, been end users on the network, etc. They've been in the trenches.

3. Education - they know what will and won't work, standards, electrical codes, building codes, etc. They can see the big picture for the entire building or campus and know better than to shoot themselves in the foot. They have knowledge of the systems.

4. Ability - they can produce electronic drawings and specifications as needed to complete a 'system' not just components.

Now, that is a fair amount to ask for, but it is achievable. However, at some point, there are not enough hours in the day to stay current with all the phases of what we do AND still do it. So, there becomes a logical division between folks who still do the majority of the work and those who have done it and now manage it.

There are MANY engineers, consultants and RCDD's that are by the book folks, but frankly, that won't work in the field all the time. Also, it is a poor way to spend your customers money. It is better to be aware of the correct way to do it, but also know other options to get the work accomplished that are cost saving for the customer and still sound installations.

Ahh, gotta love this work!



Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
Solving 'Real World' problems

 

[oldtimerbob]

It will work but your signal loss maybe will not let the cable pass any of the modern standards, along with the length,so testing for anything other than just a good 'wiremap' and to determine what MB rate you may achieve is outta the question.

If you are determined to use cat5,at least use the Cat5E ( enhanced) riser rated 'indoor/outdoor', Cat6 would be better.

I would also suggest you get a hybrid cable with at least a 6 pair count and put a switch at both ends as close as you can.

Now we are not gonna get into 'grounding' are we?
If so, then get the type with a shield or a ground wire so you can do that part too at your ends.

ON the other comments:
Daron is right.


Good Luck,

 

[mikeydidit]

My latest building on campus has 3 stories and covers around 153,000 square feet, which would average out to be around 51,000 per floor.

The architects’ designed this building with 1 networking closet per floor. Our governing body has 2 RCDD's on staff and the plans were also sent to them for review. Our networking group also received a copy of these plans.

Now myself, not being an RCDD and "just the phone man", I had to inform all 3 of these groups that their plans for this building would not work and be up to BICSI standards.

A second closet per floor was added.

This building now has a total of 2100 jacks for voice and data in it and we are adding more by the day.

Welcome to my world guy's.


Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center

 

[Jtodd]

Mike,

I'm a little curious, what constitutes your 'governing body'? We've got a centrilized IT department for the entire campus and it's me working with Design & Construction to see the IT needs get met. I'm the closest thing around here to an RCDD (not enough time to stuff for the test).

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay

 

[mikeydidit]

We have an agency that is over all state agencies for telecommunications. This includes inside cabling and outside plant, LD contacts, and most items that need to be purchased pertaining to the above. (PBX's, some phones, ect.)

Mike Jones
Louisiana State University Health Sciences center

 

[Jtodd]

Mike I feel for you!! I've just one campus worth of bureaucracy (there is some input/influence from the CSU System, but not much control) and I couldn't imagine one that runs the whole state!!!!

Justin T. Clausen
Physical Layer Implementation
California State University, Monterey Bay