linux not recognised 3

[garwain]

The main reason that I've found for linux not being recognised is not a lack of publicity, but because M$ makes deals with computershops to provide ONLY M$ OS's. Living in the middle of nowhere there are very few computer shops, and if you ask at any one of them they do not support/distribute anything but m$. Some have contracts where M$ will provide them with lower-cost products that they can sell for the same price as other stores and other stores either don't realize there are alternatives or the don't see enough demand to change their way of buisness.

If computer stores started to promote Linux, MAC OS, OS X, BSD, BEOS, etc there would be more demand in the area for support and products for these systems and thus it would then become justified to have technicians and sales people experianced in these OSs. However the regular users will always take what is in front of them with support available, and it's in the end up to the computer stores to start the new trend by promoting alternatives to their customers.

 

[wbg34]

Venkman,
My contention has never been that "having choice is what scares people away from linux" and I didn't state that well enough in my first post. As I stated in my first post, "The Linux product group is to fractured in it's presentation." This is referring directly to how Linux is marketed. The problem isn't the choices that you have with Linux. It's just the way those choices have been presented that have made Linux much more difficult to market. I think that the choices that you have in Linux are one of it's strongest points and if dealt with better could be it's best selling point. I just think that Linux should be marketed because of the OS's strengths not which wrapper you put on it.

 

[Zwkz]

>>I don't think having choice is what scares people away from linux. I could sit here and type out examples of other industries for you, but I'm sure you can imagine my arguments. I don't feel you've really made your point, why is it that you think choice amongst operating systems is any different than choice in any other industry (cars, electronics...etc.)?

Venkman, i agree with wbg34 in that "having choice is what scares people away from linux", and i feel your example is slightly wrong.

its not the choices between the cars, electronics etc that's causing the problem. its when a vendor says: "ou want car xxx? what camshaft do you want? which fanbelt? there are 43 different combinations of gears for your transmission, which one do you want??"

and therin lies the problem

 

[venkman]

Zwkz, what choices are you referring to in operating systems? Most desktop oriented linuxes, like Mandrake, Suse, and Redhat, give you a choice of 3 or 4 default configurations (usually full, laptop, desktop, and server). I don't think this is all that complicated.

Obviously the choices amongst hardware, like how much memory, what type and speed and processor, monitor, cd-rw vs. dvd, etc., do not scare people, since dell allows you to customize all of this and they're still very successful. I don't think choosing between distributions of linux is any harder than choosing any of the above.

-Venkman

 

[MDXer]

Venkman


Obviously the choices amongst hardware, like how much memory, what type and speed and processor, monitor, cd-rw vs. dvd, etc., do not scare people, since dell allows you to customize all of this and they're still very successful. I don't think choosing between distributions of linux is any harder than choosing any of the above.


Unfortunately this statement is not accurate most of the major computer vendors now break their systems into families with each family supporting a base hardware configuration and allowing only a limited number of options for various components. Typically choices are limited to 2 sometimes 5 choices such as:

Processor
Intel P4 xGhz
Intel P4 xGhz
Intel P4 xGhz
Intel Celeron xGhz

Memory
128M 1 stick
128M 2 stick
256M 1 Stick
256M 2 Stick

Video Card
32 model x
64 model x
128 3d model y

and so on.

Which takes Zwkz's arguement of

its not the choices between the cars, electronics etc that's causing the problem. its when a vendor says: "ou want car xxx? what camshaft do you want? which fanbelt? there are 43 different combinations of gears for your transmission, which one do you want??"


to a more common What size engine 4.3, 5.0, Manual transmission or automatic transmission.








"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck

 

[venkman]

Still, I don't think it would be too much to ask for to have an additional two sections:


Operating System:
1. Windows XP
2. Redhat Linux
3. Lindows

Use:

1. Desktop
2. Server


With the use option not appearing if you're buying a Laptop or if you selected Lindows (Windows Desktop = XP Home and Windows Server = XP Pro). Yeah, it doesn't list out every possible distribution or combination, but some choice is better than none. More importantly, this level of choice gives people the option of taking a non-MS alternative without confusing them.

I guess in the end I'm starting to see wbg's point. It's not the actual choice itself, but how you present it.

-Venkman

 

[MDXer]

Venkman,

I do agree that a user should be allowed to select the OS if they even want an OS. I think one possible reason for lack of choice that has not been mentioned is the preception of what a user is. How many developers here have been told that what seemed simple is to complex for the users. I think all users outside of IT are precieved as mindless idiots unable to do anything. Look at all the Tech call stories that you have hears (The cup holder, the computer not being plugged in) I have gotten both of those really. To many companies only look at the worst case it's the 80-20 (Pareto) rule, 80% of you time is spent helping 20% of the people. Unfortunately when it comes to computers that 20% is the bottom 20%.

I know this choice does exist when buying servers. Many of the vendors now have Linux groups (I heard a couple years ago dell was even setting one up). I do know in the server area you can specify no software at all. This is a big money saver, not time saver, when setting up development enviroments as it allows you to use your MSDN license, it also exists for companies that have License kits, agreements.

"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck

 

[venkman]

But back to wbg's original argument:

When a person, usually a new user or potential user, asks a question about a distro the following generally happens. For each response that addresses the question there are one or two responses that put down the distro asked about and stress the high points of their favorite distro.

As I understand you now, you are speciffically talking about potential users who go to news groups or help sites to ask which distro they should try out first. Again, I don't think this is much different than any newsgroup on any other topic. If I ask which car I should get I'm going to get many different responses. Questions about which distro to use are on that level, not the level of camshafts as Zwkz wrote.

The problem is there isn't a real answer to that question. That's what happens when you have a healthy competitive capitalist society, the choices you are given in reference to products are not clear cut. That said, if you ask the question enough you will see a trend for people recommending that you install redhat, suse, or mandrake first. Frankly, I haven't had enough of a problem with any one of those three to say that installing one over the other would be a big mistake. There are certain differences that more techy types will notice, but most normal people will not notice the differences. As such the choice is not a huge deal. I think most people are capable of realizing that Linux is Linux and that distributions are just different flavors of the same thing.


-Venkman

 

[Provogeek]

To shed a little humor on this thread

http://www.ucomics.com/foxtrot/2003/08/14/

 

[Stevehewitt]

Hey.

Wonder if I can shead some light on this a bit. I am a Windows guy. MCP 2000, Freelance consultant on pretty much any Windows network (and the odd mac client).

The honest answer of why "linux not recognised" is that I am scared of it!!! I considor myself a IT professional. I can do networking, websites, database systems and even some limited programming - but when it comes to linux it would mean a new lab machine, then finding the correct type. SuSe, Redhat, Lindows. I have no idea. Then of course there is the fact that I wouldn't know anything about any of the software or configuration. I am very confident with the Windows Command Prompt and DOS. I was brought up with DOS, so I know it very well.

I think that you are giving the MS marketing a bit too much of a hard time. I am not saying that MS have not part to play, but lets face it: A more complex OS with less support and a stupid name comes on the market which isn't suitable for desktop usage and there is limited offical support for it. And you wonder why it hasn't taken off as well as it should do?!

Steve.

 

[skiflyer]

Well, Steve, I agree that that's one of the biggest reasons, but as a professional... you best get less scared of it... can you imagine a customers thoughts if they said... well I heard Linux has X,Y,Z, what do you think about adopting it in this organization, and you say... I dunno, I never use it anywhere.

-Rob

 

[Stevehewitt]

I agree. And hopefully I will get myself a cheap little server with some version of Linux and have a play. But my last paragraph said it all really!

Its a relativity new product compared to MS software, with little offical support, a stupid name and (IMHO) its more complex.

 

[venkman]

Its a relativity new product compared to MS software

Don't think that's true... and even if it was, it would be more helpful to Sun and other Unix makers than to MS, since Unix has been around a lot longer than Windows NT.

with little official support

Not sure what you're referring to here. If you're referring to tech support, then I point you in the direction of IBM. As far as third party software support, that is a big problem for desktop user apps, I agree. It's getting better, I use Linux as a desktop OS and I get by just fine, but it's a bit of a challenge at times. This will get better with time, but agreed, it's not really there yet for people who require more than just email and a web browser. However, server software support on linux is fantastic and for the most part free. Sure SQL server is cheaper than Oracle, but MySQL is free (and I believe the most recent version supports transactions as I recall).

a stupid name

Well, I think this speaks more to Microsoft's victory in claiming the f-ing word "Windows". By the way I'm planning to trademark the words "Door", "Sky" (assuming that the vodka company hasn't beaten me to it), and "Air" tomorrow. I'll be expecting royalty payments for use of these words. Microsoft really just lucked out with the name here, and there's not very much space left for good names (ala the unrealeased Microsoft Invo). That said a better name and other marketing related endeavors would help.

its more complex

True, but I'm not sure how much sympathy I have for an IT guy who doesn't want to deal with complexity. Of course, if I have 2 products that perform equally and are priced equally, but one is more usable, I'll choose the more usable one. However, is this the case? Does Windows perform as well as linux, and if so is it worth the extr cost? My point here is not to say linux is definitely better (although obviously I do believe it is), but that it shouldn't be disregarded simply because it's harder to use.

-Venkman

 

[Provogeek]

Well, I think this speaks more to Microsoft's victory in claiming the f-ing word "Windows". By the way I'm planning to trademark the words "Door", "Sky" (assuming that the vodka company hasn't beaten me to it), and "Air" tomorrow. I'll be expecting royalty payments for use of these words. Microsoft really just lucked out with the name here, and there's not very much space left for good names (ala the unrealeased Microsoft Invo). That said a better name and other marketing related endeavors would help.

Microsoft basicly lost their trademark on the "Windows" name when they sued Lindows for trademark infringements.

 

[venkman]

Wait, did they lose that suit?

 

[BruceReed]

My 2 cents worth
Many years ago it was common for cars to have either 6 volt, 12 volt, both positive & negative grounds for the electrical system. Mechanics had to familiar with all types, and God help them if screwed up what type it was. Now there is only one standard, 12 volts negative ground, regardless if the car is built in North America, Asia or Europe.

For better or worse Bill has pushed a standard on the market place with MS software. It may or may not be the best, but everyone in the world knows how to use it. Now everyone builds their software to run on the MS OS. Makes it very easy for the masses to buy a PC & know it is (more or less) compatible with every other PC in the world.

Cheers
Bruce

 

[Stevehewitt]

Venkman

You provide some interesting points. The botttom line is that Linux (Not Unix)has not been around as long as Windows. Even if it has, I don't know about it - which isn't Microsoft's fault for being good marketing - that what marketing departments in Internatational companies are meant to do. Maybe its the Linux developers fault - not its competitors?

Stupid name. Well Lindows still sounds stupid to me!

Support, well if I am having problems networking a Linux server to a Windows network I wouldn't know where to start for support. With just Windows I would simply look it up in TechNet. If not then my consultant will help me out .

Although he has used Linux before many times, I wouldn't know what I am doing or even the terminology. I have been brought up with Windows. That is to Microsoft's credit if Linux was out at that point as MS had good marketing, whereas Linux has crap marketing. If Windows was out for a while before Linux really became a OS that could REALLY be used for small - medium businesses then its just the way of the market. I was brought up with a completly different enviroment, DOS and Windows. Now there is something new on the market with poor marketing, that my manager hasn't heard of and I havent' really used.

Thats why "Linux isn't acknowledged"!

 

[venkman]

Here's a link to a recent cnet article linked to by slashdot

http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh

I think you'll find your concerns about support answered fairly well here.

As for being brought up on Windows, I must remind you that the generation of techies before you used Unix, and the generation after you may very well use Linux. I think as Linux becomes more usable, you are going to see a lot more us of it at colleges. Since it's pc based, unlike its unix predecessors, individual college students, particularly cs and is majors, will be more likely to install it. I wouldn't be the slightest bit suprised to see a wave of graduates in the next few years who know more about linux than they do about windows. Those of you with more windows backgrounds are going to have to compete with this. On a personal note, I started teaching myself linux about 2 years ago, after I was turned down for job for lack of knowledge on the subject.

I also feel it is too early to decide if Linux marketing has indeed failed. I like all those IBM commercials. Because of them, my grandmother has heard of Linux. She has no idea what the hell it is, but you have to start somewhere. I do agree the name leaves something to be desired, but I don't feel it's any worse than excel.

-Venkman

 

[Stevehewitt]

I agree, and I can't say that the MS stuff is better than open source as I haven't got any real experience with Linux or the such like.

Regarding support - Well he wasn't and IT guy. He was a business man. I would like to find out from a techy at the company how they dealt with it. Maybe superb without a hitch, maybe not and they were working all the hours god sent as they had no idea what they were doing. I simply cannot comment. My point going back to the title of this thread. Its not recognised as IMHO I do not know how I would get support. Everyone knows about MS support. KB is superb - I know about it. Like I said:

Stupid name
Little support that is known about
More complex than Windows
Poor marketing

I am not saying that Linux is bad, or that Windows is great - I don't know Linux well enough to comment. As someone who hasn't really recognised Linux I am giving my opinion as to why I personally don't think its being recognised.

Interesting discussion though!

Steve.

 

[wbg34]

I also feel it is too early to decide if Linux marketing has indeed failed.

I hope you're right about the future, but as it is today you definitely cannot call Linux's marketing a success. Actually, I think word of mouth from techies has done far more to promote Linux then any marketing strategy (from a linux company) has done.
I honestly hope that Linux gets alot more attention because I prefer it, but I still cannot implement it at the business that I work for because of the lack of available professional software (in my circumstances CAD)for it.

 

[skiflyer]

For a dose of honesty here...

One big reason Linux isn't recognized is alot of us techies (myself included) are the try and figure it out kinda crowd. This is more difficult in a predominantly command line driven interface than in a predominantly GUI environment.

IMHO, there are 40 weak reasons why Windows beats Linux, and 5 Strong reasons Linux beats Windows. The numbers are fictitious, but the ratio is about right. I think one of the big reasons Windows is around is because of a plethora of weak arguments and "because I'm used to it".

I mean come on... stupid name vs. network security, or complexity vs. effectiveness. Marketing vs. TCO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a windows guy primarily, I've got my test box in the basement... but otherwise I'm pretty much Linux free.... my reason, TCO... given my experience and my knowledge and my current position, I just need to get stuff done, I don't have time for research.... I think alot of the business world continually feels like they're in this situation.... and until something catastrophic argues them over, they're not going to change.

Just my ramblings.

-Rob