Linux destops to buy cheap or not? 5

[ST0RMCHASER]

I would like to purchase a new computer with Linux installed on it as a learning tool. I had spoken with someone about this, and they said to buy a cheap computer is putting a limit on myself when I could spend a few hundred dollars extra, and have no limits on the use of the system. I was going to buy the cheap one because after all I just want to learn the Operating system. Will I be putting limits on myself by buying a model that cost a little over $300.00? Will I be better off buying a model costing extra? Or does it matter? I based my information on Linux being a robust Operating System. Able to run regardless of how rough the tower stats are. Does the hardware matter in the cheap systems that are being offered these days that include Linux? Any suggestions? If you are curious as to which one I am thinking of getting. It is at Wal... and has linux Mandrake 8.2 installed.

TIA!

 

[fluid11]

If you just want to learn the OS, then a cheap one is fine. If you want to play games, then you would want to spend a little extra and get some quality hardware.

ChrisP

 

[tanderso]

Don't buy a cheap linux PC from a name brand distributer. They cost way more than they should, even at the cheap price they are offering. Instead, go to

http://cyberpowerpc.com

and get a good mid-range system for around $450. Still inexpensive, but good name-brand parts, without skimping. Here are some good linux configurations at the CyberPower AMD Configurator in order from el-cheapo (but still way better than a Walmart computer) to kick-ass-but-still-reasonable:
[ul][li]ATX MEDIUM TOWER CASE 350 WATT [+ 33]
AMD CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK
MSI KT3 ULTRA-2 KT333 MB w/ ATA 133 & 5.1 AUDIO & USB 2.0 [+68]
AMD Duron™ 1.3GHz CPU [+49]
256 MB PC2700 333MHz DDR MEMORY (REQUIRES KT333 MB) [+69]
nVidia TNT-2 M64 32MB AGP [+26]
120 WATT STEREO SPEAKERS [+5]
40GB 5400 RPM ATA 100 HARD DRIVE [+77]
56X CD-ROM [+22]
MITSUMI 1.44 MB FLOPPY DR [+10]
PS2 MULTIMEDIA INTERNET KEYBOARD [+8]
PS2 INTERNET MOUSE W/ WHEEL [+5]
PCI 32 BIT 10/100 NETWORK CARD [+ 15]
OS: NONE FORMAT HARD DRIVE ONLY
RUSH: NO; SHIP OUT IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS
3-Year STANDARD WARRANTY PLUS ONE-YEAR ONSITE SERVICE
Total: 387.00[/li]
[li]ATX MEDIUM TOWER CASE 350 WATT [+ 33]
AMD CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK + 3 EXTRA CASE FANS [+9]
MSI KT3 ULTRA-2 KT333 MB w/ ATA 133 & 5.1 AUDIO & USB 2.0 [+68]
AMD Athlon™ XP-1700+ [1.47GHz QuantiSpeed] 266 FSB CPU [+58]
512 MB PC2700 333MHz DDR MEMORY (REQUIRES KT333 MB) [+138]
nVIDIA GEFORCE2 MX-400 64MB AGP [+37]
120 WATT STEREO SPEAKERS [+5]
MAXTOR 40GB 7200 RPM ATA 133 HARD DRIVE [+89]
56X CD-ROM [+22]
MITSUMI 1.44 MB FLOPPY DR [+10]
PS2 MULTIMEDIA INTERNET KEYBOARD [+8]
PS2 INTERNET MOUSE W/ WHEEL [+5]
PCI 32 BIT 10/100 NETWORK CARD [+ 15]
OS: NONE FORMAT HARD DRIVE ONLY
RUSH: NO; SHIP OUT IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS
3-Year STANDARD WARRANTY PLUS ONE-YEAR ONSITE SERVICE
Total: 497.00[/li]
[li]ATX MEDIUM TOWER CASE 350 WATT [+ 33]
AMD CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK + 3 EXTRA CASE FANS [+9]
SOYO SY-KT400 Dragon Ultra Platinum w/Audio,Lan,UDMA133,Raid,USB2.0 [+169]
AMD Athlon™ XP-2000+ [1.67 GHz QuantiSpeed] 266 FSB CPU [+89]
512 MB PC3200 400MHz DDR MEMORY (REQUIRES KT400 MB) [+161]
MEMORYUPGRADE: From Standard Memory to CORSAIR High Performance Memory W/ Heat Spreader [+39]
ATI RADEON 9000 PRO 128MB DDR w/ TV OUT & DVI [+99]
Creative Labs SB AUDIGY 5.1 W/ IEEE [+69]
ALTEC LANSING AVS300 SUBWOOFER STEREO SPEAKERS [+32]
MAXTOR 60GB 7200 RPM ATA 133 HARD DRIVE [+95]
16X DVD ROM [+35]
CD-RW 40X12X48 [+45]
MITSUMI 1.44 MB FLOPPY DR [+10]
PS2 MULTIMEDIA INTERNET KEYBOARD [+8]
Microsoft Optical Wheel Mouse [+ 12] (made by Logitech!)
OS: NONE FORMAT HARD DRIVE ONLY
RUSH: NO; SHIP OUT IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS
3-Year STANDARD WARRANTY PLUS ONE-YEAR ONSITE SERVICE
Total: 905.00[/li][/ul]

AMDs are generally easy to overclock, especially with a Soyo Dragon MoBo and Corsair memory, but even the Durons with cheap memory will go to the next rated level. Any of these systems will do nicely for nearly all applications you can think of, but the latter two will add just a little extra oomph! Your preferred configuration will really depend on your desired use though. If buring (and listening to) MP3s is your thing, then a good sound card and bigger, faster storage might be good, along with a fast CDRW. The above configurations are incrementally better versions of a good all-around PC. You could also go crazy and spend like $2000 if you wanted an All-In-Wonder 9700, Audigy Platinum, Athlon 2700+, multiple 120GB HDDs, etc., but I've tried to show you the "best buys" for price vs performance.
Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
CEO, Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[tanderso]

BTW, don't expect every single feature of your hardware to be supported in linux. For instance, I don't think there is a driver for the RAID controller on the Soyo motherboard, and I doubt that the firewire on the SB Audigy is supported (though I could be wrong). But the primary features of most name brand hardware will work correctly. Most nVidia, ATI, and SB cards should work fine. Consider secondary features to be icing on the cake though. But if you are handy with C, go ahead and contribute drivers for them to the community!
Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
CEO, Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[jgr220]

A quik caveat make sure to install kenel source at first install it will save you alot of posting to forums that you cant get blablabla towork. Also why buy another computer just run a dual boot on your windows or mac machine?

 

[tanderso]

Sorry, jqr220, but I have to disagree with you about compiling your own kernel. If you start with a distribution like Mandrake, then everything should work right off the bat. But if you compile the newest kernel, then many things will stop working and need to be reinstalled referencing the new source tree. Better to just go with a major distribution and wait a few months to try a new kernel until after you've become familiar with some of the innerworkings of the OS (at least until you've memorized the flags to pass to tar).

I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a primary computer. If you just want to learn linux, then install it on another HDD or try cygwin.

In any event, my advise on buying a system stands no matter the use. Keep away from name-brand boxes and buy custom-built grey boxes that use name-brand components.
Sincerely,

Tom Anderson
CEO, Order amid Chaos, Inc.

http://www.oac-design.com

 

[jgr220]

Sorry I meant to say kernel headers my bad

 

[ST0RMCHASER]

Thank you so much guys. This computer is just a learning tool. I could put it on the computer I have now, but the stats are lousy, plus I have to buy quite a few parts first. In order for it to work. This computer is not worth new parts IMO. I plan to run it till it won't run anymore. Then ditch it, and never look at another Windows OS. (If I can not sure because of the field I am going into.)

I gave you each a star, I thought you deserved it. Now I have to decide if I want to wait a little longer, and spend extra on a Linux box, or get one now. Just to let you know, I know nothing about kernels. I know about their importance, and all computers have them. That's it.

 

[krale]

It depends, how cheap do you want to get? I've built Linux boxes for 60$ (and that was on the expensive end).

If you hit computer shows and look through the junk bins, you can find a quite a bit of great deals.

All you need is a:
Case (20$-new)
Motherboard (5$-junk bin)
hard drive (10$-used)
floppy (2$-junk bin)
CDrom (5$-junk bin)
Graphics card (Get a cheapo like a ATI rage- no more than 10$)
Sound Card (if you have ISA, go with SB16-10$)
CPU (Find a friend who wants to sell you his old one. If you can, get a Mobo too- depends on speed)
Ethernet Card (5$-used)
Heatsink/fan (15$- new)
Cables (4$-new)

I've got about 101$ on this setup, but where you save even more is by re-using parts that you obsoleted by upgrading another computer. Got a junk pci 10Mbit card? Toss it in there. Flakey sound card? See if it works in Linux. Look! the school is throwing out a case with PSU. Snatch it up.

Trust me, when you're experimenting with Linux, its best to be as cheap as possible. I've got a 750Mhz box with a ATI all in wonder 128 just following my own system building principles. I've been using that All in wonder till I recently got a nVidia GF 4200. I also before that upgraded my CPU. All that 66Mhz ram was unusable in my 1Ghz tower. It went to my secondary box. Now, that secondary box screams. BTW: I paid 20$ for 4 Athlon-class motherboards. That was one of the boards that worked--- A7Pro

Definition of a Kernel: It's the piece of software that allows hardware to be controlled, adjusts memory for programs, and takes care of low level administration functions (like permissions). With Linux, you can download the source code for the kernel and change the configs (by a nice configuration program, or by terminal-your choice) and tailor it to your system. There's even some really cool features hidden that could be dangerous to your system-like NTFS write and devfs.

All in all, if you play with the kernel, it's going to be fun. If you do need help walking through it, let me know.

 

[psychoplop]

Hi,

some time ago I installed Mandrake 8.2 on a system with an Intel 200 MMX processor, a S3 graphics card (2MB), Soundblaster Gold Awe 64 (ISA), Realtek Network card (10MBit), 2 HD's of 3 GB (total 6GB) and a CDRW (LG 4x4x32), with 128MB SDRAM (PC66 or 100).

It all worked quite well, didn't have any problems setting up the system, since Mandrake auto-detected everything.

If you have an older system like this, I'd advise you to stick with KDE2.x or Gnome 1.x, since otherwise the graphics will require too much resources. But even with these graphical environment, you can make it look quite good. (I have one or two screenshots on my linux-page at

http://www.wannes.tk)

Right now I'm running an AMD Athlon XP2000+ (512MB RAM, Geforce2 MX400, 40 GB (7200rpm), MSI 48x16x48 CDRW, ECS-Elite MB). ECS Really rocks with AMD processors on linux-machines. It's a very low-cost but fast enough MB. Not made for overclocking of course but good enough.

So you have the choice:

1. try linux on an old machine and be amazed what linux can do with a pc that would crash every five seconds under window$.
2. buy a newer one, with fairly inexpensive parts (ECS MB, nvidia cards up to Geforce2 are more than enough, even for gaming, on-board sound and lan and a HD that's big enough to try out all sorts of programs running on linux) for a really boosting experience.

Psycho

 

[ST0RMCHASER]

Thanks everyone for your replies. This has been all very helpful. Great bunch of people to hang with on the internet. I saved all the tips to a text file. So I wouldn't loose this info.

 

[krale]

psychoplop:

---1. try linux on an old machine and be amazed what linux can do with a pc that would crash every five seconds under window$.

I can tell you, and write plenty of programs that would screw up a Linux box in 5 seconds flat. Linux's missing plenty of features:
1: CPU quota
2: Memory quota
3: HD transfer quota (both ways)
4: No append-only support (one of the posix models)RAWX - Good for log files
5: No lockdown model to freeze the routing table
6: The creation of /proc (big hole)
7: No jail() call , only the yucky chroot()
8: Most Distro's have no wheel group (for controlling who can even call su ---still's not hard to implement
9: No good system of ACL's (unless you use the NSA patch or the 2.6 access swapper)
10: No way users can individually create groups
11: No easy to encrypt individual forks of the File system that allows users under group listing to seamlessly decrypt(even windows has this)

I can easilly understand if this doesnt make sense, but I require certain features under different circumstances. To me, this is an anti-linux list. I'd look towards the BSD's.

Still, considering this is taking care of Windows users, they usually arent big issues.

 

[krale]

I dont know about anybody else, but does this scare you?

-r-------- 1 root root 536809472 Jan 15 14:37 kcore

kcore is your physical memory mapped to a file. Now think if somebody took over a chrooted environment and became root. Then they proceed to create a hard link from /dev/(root drive) to /chroot . They now have root access to your fs. Then they can wait and grep memory for all sorts of things. BSD Jail(doesnt allow certain syscals) and has no /proc fs.

In my humble opinion, Linux as a secure server scares me.

...there's some who think I am a hacker. Maybe they're right.

 

[jgr220]

Hey krale dont turn this into a rant the guy is new dont turn this into a pissing match about OS's

 

[krale]

Oops, sorry.

sheepish ;-)

 

[psychoplop]

Hi, krale,

I don't know much about programming and security stuff for servers, but what I do know is that a home user, who wants stability and reliability of a system, that won't cost a fortune, will be very happy using linux.

But of course, windows has several advantages:
1. 'everybody' uses it, so there are many applications available
2. the NT versions are stable and work quite fine, although they require more of your system's resources.

The disadavantages:
1. monopoly of Windows=> costs a fortune. An official version of Windows XP and Office XP will cost you almost as much as your computer (PC costed +-550 EUR, while XP and Office cost around 500 EUR).
2. Almost every virus is made to affect windows-PC's.

Every system has its advantages and its disadvantages, otherwise there would only be one system, and if for your situation Windows is better, no problem. My recommendation for an operating system on the desktop is linux.

Psycho

 

[ST0RMCHASER]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way I see this being a problem is if the user is online under root. If I remember right from all of this reading on Linux, Your not suppose to be under "root" on a server box online? Isn't this a big no-no? I believe I READ a few lines too that said if you was running as root then you (cough) deserve getting hacked.

Your right too jgr220 I don't care to turn this discussion into a pissing OS match. I see this as a lesson. I saw the Linux Mandrake file for bankruptcy under chapter 11. This guy.... OOOps! GIRL! got pissed because of this happening. I was just curious as to why a stable version of linux would have that kind of problem. I guess I need to do more homework.

As for advertising Linux, perhaps satisfied Linux users could come up with some nice flash banners, and full page ads for peeps to set up on their websites? I don't have a flash program. (I can't afford it) But flash would do a good job of advertising for right now. Till a new route can be set up.



krale
"I dont know about anybody else, but does this scare you?

-r-------- 1 root root 536809472 Jan 15 14:37 kcore"

 

[psychoplop]

I complete agree with Stormchaser,

It's a real advantage to know that although you can be infected by a virus, you'll never loose your operating system and not even most of your programs. Everything installed as root will remain in good shape, while you'll only loose your private data (i.e. data which are property of the user which was attacked by the virus.

Psycho

 

[jgr220]

Stormchaser I forgot to mention If you buy or build a system check to make sure that your vid and sound cards are supported by linux or that their manufacturer makes drivers for linux. Nvidias cards work nicely when you install their drivers not so well with the standard linux drivers IE you probably wont have a mouse cursor till you install Nvidia or if you use radeon ( I hear they are writing drivers too but that they are a bit choppy) If you go for The linux route LOOK HERE for help.

http://www.linuxiso.org

http://www.linuxnewbie.org

and

http://www.linux.org

 

[ST0RMCHASER]

jgr220

Thanks for the Links. I believe I have two of those already. They do come in handy.