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Language 4
- Thread starter Dimandja
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1
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I was once told that the best way to learn a foreign language was in bed. However my wife would probably object if I tried that nowadays!
As a second best working in the relevant country is better than school. I worked for five months in Italy and my Italian is better than my French was after five years of high school. I can't tell you about my aunt's pen but I learnt the Italian for 'self tapping screw' within a week of arrival It's autofilante if you're curious. Try doing that with sign language.
What I've never tried is learning a language outside of Europe. Given that English is a mixture of Latin and germanic roots the linguistic similarities help. The articals points out that Arabic has few points of contact for the English speaker and is therefore more difficult. And then you add the dialects!
Columb Healy
As a second best working in the relevant country is better than school. I worked for five months in Italy and my Italian is better than my French was after five years of high school. I can't tell you about my aunt's pen but I learnt the Italian for 'self tapping screw' within a week of arrival It's autofilante if you're curious. Try doing that with sign language.
What I've never tried is learning a language outside of Europe. Given that English is a mixture of Latin and germanic roots the linguistic similarities help. The articals points out that Arabic has few points of contact for the English speaker and is therefore more difficult. And then you add the dialects!
Columb Healy
Stella740pl
Programmer
I was once told that the best way to learn a foreign language was in bed.
One of my Russian-speaking acquaintances told me so, too, long ago. He said he got his best results studying English from night learning, in bed with his British girlfriend. ;-)
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I 'learnt' some foreign languages formally (Arabic, Russian,Spanish) by academic study. I learnt German by talking to Germans in pubs, shops etc in West Germany.
I was occasionally taken for a German (accused of being a peasant from NiederSachsen by Bavarians) but never learnt enough colloquial Russian or Arabic to be so mistaken.
My friends who married frauleins very quickly became much more fluent even the ones who weren't language specialists.
Personally I think necessity is the best spur to learning a language which is why most "first language is English" speakers don't bother.
I was occasionally taken for a German (accused of being a peasant from NiederSachsen by Bavarians) but never learnt enough colloquial Russian or Arabic to be so mistaken.
My friends who married frauleins very quickly became much more fluent even the ones who weren't language specialists.
Personally I think necessity is the best spur to learning a language which is why most "first language is English" speakers don't bother.
SantaMufasa
Technical User
Steven,
I totally agree...as long as the rest of the world accommodates us by their learning English, why should we "fat-and-sassy" Anglos learn a second language.
In Japan, in fact, Japanese businessmen discourage Anglos from using Japanese...The Japanese would much rather speak (show off their) English.
Necessity is the Mother of Multilinguistics in my opinion.
![[santa]](/data/assets/smilies/santa.gif "[santa] [santa]")
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
I totally agree...as long as the rest of the world accommodates us by their learning English, why should we "fat-and-sassy" Anglos learn a second language.
In Japan, in fact, Japanese businessmen discourage Anglos from using Japanese...The Japanese would much rather speak (show off their) English.
Necessity is the Mother of Multilinguistics in my opinion.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
SantaMufasa I do hope you're being ironic. Possibly because I'm becoming a grumpy old man I deplore the western cultural imperialism that is rapidly depriving the world of any variety. Do we really want a world where every restaurant is McDonalds?
Language and culture are deeply and extricably intertwined. As we lose linguistic distinction we lose cultural distinction and the world becomes a poorer place.
For me foreign travel, and in particular working abroad, has been the greatest part of my education. Part of this learning experience has been immersing myself in the culture and language of the places I visit. To really learn that the culture one is born into is not the only possible mind set is to accept the whole family of man as equals. Sure, I'm British and proud of it, but I understand that this is only a viewpoint from a windswept island off the coast of Europe and it is possible to see things differently.
Sorry if I sound a bit pompous but this is something I feel strongly about.
Columb Healy
Language and culture are deeply and extricably intertwined. As we lose linguistic distinction we lose cultural distinction and the world becomes a poorer place.
For me foreign travel, and in particular working abroad, has been the greatest part of my education. Part of this learning experience has been immersing myself in the culture and language of the places I visit. To really learn that the culture one is born into is not the only possible mind set is to accept the whole family of man as equals. Sure, I'm British and proud of it, but I understand that this is only a viewpoint from a windswept island off the coast of Europe and it is possible to see things differently.
Sorry if I sound a bit pompous but this is something I feel strongly about.
Columb Healy
CajunCenturion
Programmer
==> Possibly because I'm becoming a grumpy old man I deplore the western cultural imperialism that is rapidly depriving the world of any variety.
In the United States, there are now parts of the country where Spanish is more prevalent than English, and some communities have actually declared Spanish -- not English -- as their official language. That is significant since the United States has not declared any language as an official language, although all government business is done in English.
Three states are officially bi-lingual - meaning that government affairs can be and are done in both languages: Louisiana (French and English), New Mexico (Spanish and English), and Hawaii (Hawaiian and English). The above referenced communities are in Texas, which as a state, does not have an official language.
I too have found foreign travel, both business and pleasure, to be exciting and a tremendous learning experience. I wish I could do more as there are many places I'd like to visit. I vividly remember one dinner. While in Bahrain, I was taken to a wonderful Indian restaurant (I do like curry), and after dinner, we enjoyed Irish coffee while listening to Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton singing "Islands in the stream". There is considerable richness around this world.
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In the United States, there are now parts of the country where Spanish is more prevalent than English, and some communities have actually declared Spanish -- not English -- as their official language. That is significant since the United States has not declared any language as an official language, although all government business is done in English.
Three states are officially bi-lingual - meaning that government affairs can be and are done in both languages: Louisiana (French and English), New Mexico (Spanish and English), and Hawaii (Hawaiian and English). The above referenced communities are in Texas, which as a state, does not have an official language.
I too have found foreign travel, both business and pleasure, to be exciting and a tremendous learning experience. I wish I could do more as there are many places I'd like to visit. I vividly remember one dinner. While in Bahrain, I was taken to a wonderful Indian restaurant (I do like curry), and after dinner, we enjoyed Irish coffee while listening to Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton singing "Islands in the stream". There is considerable richness around this world.
Good Luck
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- #8
Traveling and meeting new cultures is one of the best things one could do. Remember, everyone who wins the jackpot says "I want to travel and see the world".
The best way to understand oneself and own culture is to meet different cultures and languages. It is not possible to appreciate your own culture otherwise.
Simply declaring the US bilingual is interesting but means little, because we are busy "assimilating" the so-called spanish speaking population. Most of them (or their children) wouldn't know a tamale if they saw one.
The best way to understand oneself and own culture is to meet different cultures and languages. It is not possible to appreciate your own culture otherwise.
Simply declaring the US bilingual is interesting but means little, because we are busy "assimilating" the so-called spanish speaking population. Most of them (or their children) wouldn't know a tamale if they saw one.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I'm sorry you feel that way Dimandja. I can tell you that here in Louisiana, the move to bi-lingualism, the French immersion programs in schools, and similar efforts are geared towards a recognition and honoring of the French history and heritage in this part of the USA. It is not to assimilate it, but to preserve it.
Good Luck
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Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
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- #10
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Your notion that, and I quote, "we are busy 'assimilating'" is not what 'we' are doing. You have every right, and should, believe in what you say. I do feel sorry that you've chosen to believe that way.
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Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
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- #12
>I do feel sorry that you've chosen to believe that way.
This is very condescending of you. It is disrespectful to make such statements. I wish you wouldn't feel compelled to do this. And, Of course I have the right to feel anything I want, rather than blindly follow yours or anyone elses beliefs around. Please, stop patronizing me.
That said, let's move on.
>I can tell you that here in Louisiana, the move to bi-lingualism, the French immersion programs in schools, and similar efforts are geared towards a recognition and honoring of the French history and heritage in this part of the USA. It is not to assimilate it, but to preserve it.
This is quite interesting. But, when I read US press (including Louisiana publications), the sentiment is that Americans are mostly opposed to bi-lingualism. Other languages are tolerated as long as the speakers show efforts into becoming proper Americans by learning English.
To truly experience a different (i.e. spanish) culture, Mexico (for example) is best, not California (where spanish is merely tolerated and discouraged).
I applaud preservation efforts going on in Louisiana. However, the French culture in Louisiana is very distinct from any other "French" culture anywhere. It is very Americanized, and Creole (a mix of Europe and Africa). Although, everytime I traveled to those regions, I felt almost like in a different country.
This is very condescending of you. It is disrespectful to make such statements. I wish you wouldn't feel compelled to do this. And, Of course I have the right to feel anything I want, rather than blindly follow yours or anyone elses beliefs around. Please, stop patronizing me.
That said, let's move on.
>I can tell you that here in Louisiana, the move to bi-lingualism, the French immersion programs in schools, and similar efforts are geared towards a recognition and honoring of the French history and heritage in this part of the USA. It is not to assimilate it, but to preserve it.
This is quite interesting. But, when I read US press (including Louisiana publications), the sentiment is that Americans are mostly opposed to bi-lingualism. Other languages are tolerated as long as the speakers show efforts into becoming proper Americans by learning English.
To truly experience a different (i.e. spanish) culture, Mexico (for example) is best, not California (where spanish is merely tolerated and discouraged).
I applaud preservation efforts going on in Louisiana. However, the French culture in Louisiana is very distinct from any other "French" culture anywhere. It is very Americanized, and Creole (a mix of Europe and Africa). Although, everytime I traveled to those regions, I felt almost like in a different country.
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- #13
I don't see what is wrong with stating that we are busy assimilating other cultures...
You can state that any individual program is oriented toward preservation, but the reality is that corporate America assimilates... Assimilation drives sales. And so long as the corporate media* continue to present "product" to consumers in a standardized way, American English will continue to "assimilate" other languages (and cultures).
~Thadeus
*news, hollywood/movies/tv and periodicals [newsweek, redbook, tvguide, etc.]
You can state that any individual program is oriented toward preservation, but the reality is that corporate America assimilates... Assimilation drives sales. And so long as the corporate media* continue to present "product" to consumers in a standardized way, American English will continue to "assimilate" other languages (and cultures).
~Thadeus
*news, hollywood/movies/tv and periodicals [newsweek, redbook, tvguide, etc.]
CajunCenturion
Programmer
You're right Thadeus. But it's frustrating to see how negatively some view efforts to embrace multi-culturalism within this USA.
There are two sides to every coin. Dimandja has accurately described one side of the coin - there are many Americans who are against bi-lingualism, and they get their share of press. But I prefer to view the glass as half full. There are many on the other side of the coin who work hard to embrace multi-culturism within the USA and get very frustrated when their efforts are so callously written off as merely that of tolerance and manipulation. Those people deserve better than that.
Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
There are two sides to every coin. Dimandja has accurately described one side of the coin - there are many Americans who are against bi-lingualism, and they get their share of press. But I prefer to view the glass as half full. There are many on the other side of the coin who work hard to embrace multi-culturism within the USA and get very frustrated when their efforts are so callously written off as merely that of tolerance and manipulation. Those people deserve better than that.
Good Luck
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To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
- Thread starter
- #15
I am not saying that it is better to have or to not have bilingualism. Far from it. I am stating the facts that I know. If you really need to know my opinion, you can ask.
As a matter of fact, there are many arguments against multi-lingualism (as there are for it).
For example, multi-cultural (lingual) societies expand far more efforts trying to stay together. Need I mention the Balkans (of "balkanization" fame)? Need I mention Belgium where Walloons and Flemish are constantly at each other throat? Need I mention the many African countries that are barely united by the haphazard borders drawn by some clueless Europeans years ago?
It is very difficult to "form" a bilingual society. The many multi-cultural societies I can think of were formed by force or/and ignorance. The existing multi-cultural societies are mostly busy trying to part ways.
These are not very good arguments for bilingualism.
As a matter of fact, there are many arguments against multi-lingualism (as there are for it).
For example, multi-cultural (lingual) societies expand far more efforts trying to stay together. Need I mention the Balkans (of "balkanization" fame)? Need I mention Belgium where Walloons and Flemish are constantly at each other throat? Need I mention the many African countries that are barely united by the haphazard borders drawn by some clueless Europeans years ago?
It is very difficult to "form" a bilingual society. The many multi-cultural societies I can think of were formed by force or/and ignorance. The existing multi-cultural societies are mostly busy trying to part ways.
These are not very good arguments for bilingualism.
SantaMufasa
Technical User
Columb, absolutely this quote is oozing with irony, sarcasm, self-resentment, et cetera.SantaMufasa said:
First of all, English is one of the "craziest" and most difficult languages on earth to master (with all of its inconsistencies, idiosyncracies, departures from rules, et cetera). Why should such a "crazy" language become the world standard? IMHO, from an ease-of-learning-and-use and consistency perspective, either Spanish, Italian, or Esperanto should be the world standard.
English, however, is the world standard for one reason only: Commercial/Technological installed base.
And addressing another comment earlier about bi-lingual regions in the U.S.: Anyone who has been to South Florida knows that there are certain parts of Miami Metro-Dade that if you want to do business there, you had better speak Spanish (which luckily, I do). I, personally, am thrilled with the color and diversity that comes with multi-lingual/multi-cultural environments.
It is fascinating to ask those who are rabid proponents of "Single official-language" legislation how many languages they speak. I assert that an overwhelming majority speak only the language which they are pushing to become the single official language.
I've been on this soap box before, so I believe it's time for me to hop off it now.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
![[dragon]](/data/assets/smilies/dragon.gif "[dragon] [dragon]")
SantaMufasa
Technical User
Either that, Tracy, or it's "vujà dé" (the feeling that one has seen or heard something before, but only in reverse). ![[2thumbsup]](/data/assets/smilies/2thumbsup.gif "[2thumbsup] [2thumbsup]")
Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
Mufasa(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
Do you use Oracle and live or work in Utah, USA?
Then click here to join Utah Oracle Users Group on Tek-Tips.
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- #19
Stella740pl
Programmer
Tracy, I guess it's not just you. I think we did have a similar discussion, maybe not even once; but I would say it was longer than a month ago. Don't seem to find it easily, and don't have time to put a little more effort into it, though.
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