Just to hear your take on this... 2

[ToniL]

I was conversing with a co-worker today, and we were discussing the different "identifying transitions" that Black people have gone through, i.e. Nigra, Colored, Negro, and now, African American. He asked me what I felt comfortable being called. Being facetious, I said "Toni", but I knew what he meant. I told him to me, African-American means someone who was born in a tribe in Africa who is now living in America. That does not describe me. I am a Black woman, plain and simple. I have not and do not refer to myself as African-American because of what I think it means.

I suppose that I want the forum's take on this because I have been told that I'm "systematically disenfranchising myself from the African-American community" by not referring to myself as such (like I'm Michael Jackson or somebody ).

I would like to hear from both sides of this discussion, those who see my point, and those who don't and why.

Peace
Toni L.

 

[Dimandja]

jsteph,

A star for your daughters! Very funny and very smart children, you have.


>hotfusion: "isn't it correct that this name was originally given to those people originating from the Nigeria/Niger regions of Africa?

Actually, it's the reverse. Those countries were named after the people that inhabited the area.

Here are many other African countries that got their names because black people lived there:

Niger - meaning Black in Latin.

Sudan - (a name derived from the Arabic phrase - bilad as-sudan, "land of the blacks&quot. Used by Arabs to describe what is today Sub-Sahran Africa, i.e. Africa excluding Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria and Egypt.

Guinea - derives from the berber word aguinaw, or gnawa ("black man&quot, which Berbers (Nomadic Saharan Peoples) have used to describe most of West Africa.

For more info in African countries name origins:

http://www.clickafrique.com/0500rpt/politics2105.asp

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[hotfusion]

Ah. I stand corrected on that issue then.
The rest of my comment is still valid, though.....

Regards, Andy.
**************************************
My pathetic attempts at learning HTML can be laughed at here:

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[Dimandja]

The rest of my comment is still valid, though.....

I have no problem with your take on it.

But, notice that all those names/labels originated from non-blacks.

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[Dimandja]

The real reason why I object to the "African-American" label follows.

African-American assumes that all Africans are black. They are not. African-American assumes that there is a nationality called African. Wrong again.

Would you say European-American? Of course not.

The term "African-American" shows the pervasive ignorance of the continent of Africa and its people. If one insists on calling people Irish-American, then I'll allow Nigerian-American or Tunisian-American, but not "African-American".

"African-American" is a label that means nothing. It does not even describe the racial color, which the term obviously endeavors to do.

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[Katy44]

do you think our kids will have stripes

Hilarious!!

The first time I met a non-pink girl, I was probably about two or three and at my childminders. She told me that a friend of hers (who helped her in her childminding, and would be over later) had adopted a little 'coloured' girl. My childish brain instantly conjured up a little girl covered in pink, purple, yellow and green stripes!

 

[SteveGlo]

I don't tan very well and I am mostly a sort of blotchy pink colour and fish-belly white and you think you've got problems.

 

[tsdragon]

When I worked at one of the local hotels there were a couple of young women working there who had just recently come to the US from Africa (I can't remember which country). They overheard one of the local black women that worked there refer to herself as "African American" and took exception to the term. In their broken English the gist of what they said was: "You not African-American, you American. We African!"

I didn't get to catch the "American" girl's response. I sure wish I had.


Tracy Dryden

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[ToniL]

Jsteph,

Yes, I am Cuban, however, as Dimandja said, the term "African-American" tends to put all Black people into one group... Am I Black? Yes... Am I African? No... I have never even been to Africa, so I can't claim it. Nor will I. To suggest that all dark skinned people come from Africa is just plain crazy... As I said before, society looks at me and sees a Black woman, and unless I tell you otherwise, you would, too...

It is, after all, a description of how they appear, and should not be a suggestion of their possible origin. I would therefore view the use of an expression such as "African American" as being on very dodgy ground indeed.

Agreed.

In terms of a physical description, I am Black; not African-American... Not African at all, really, although some of my ancestors may have been, but I am speaking of myself.

 

[Dimandja]

I have black american friends who traveled to Africa for the very first time. You can imagine their bewilderment when, upon arrival in Africa, they were labeled as "white" by Africans. They are still shell-shocked by it.

That happened because in many black societies of Africa, anyone who has "white" blood in them is rightfully called white. The reverse of what you see in America.

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[ToniL]

Dimandja,

The "Mighty Drop" theory is still alive and well in America; but I never knew that the theory was held in Africa, except the other way around... That is interesting, seeing as though a great many Black people hold on to the "Mother Land" line of thinking, when in fact, Africans see the American Black as White. I suppose it would be a rude awakening to American Blacks who are visiting the continent for the first time... I do have a question, though... In light of what you said, do Africans take offense or exception to American Blacks calling themselves "African-Americans"?

 

[Dimandja]

>do Africans take offense or exception to American Blacks calling themselves "African-Americans"?

Not that I know of.

But generally speaking, blacks in Africa try to emulate what the blacks in America are doing. For example, many young black Africans (me included) were very sympathetic to the "Black Panthers" and the "Black Power" concepts; although I doubt they fully understood what it was all about.

So, it is entirely conceivable that black Africans will accept whatever black Americans want to be called.

A lot of black Africans feel the pain of separation, when they hear of how black people came to populate America. And it does not matter to them whether black Americans are "white" in their eyes -- they understand that there is a mix of black and white; but they believe the proper label for them is "white".

The younger generations of black Africans tend to call all blacks "black" -- in conformity with the trend being set by black Americans.

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[ToniL]

That is SO interesting... In Cuba, the popular PC term is "Afro-Cuban" in reference to the many (more than 70%) dark skinned people in Cuba, but here again, that comes more from the cultural similarities that have their roots in Africa, but are practiced in Cuba. What's funny, is there are a ton of blonde haired blue eyed Cubans, but we don't call them "Euro-Cubans"... I read and re-read your posts and I find it so interesting... One other question... Do Africans whose blood has not been diluted feel a sense of superiority over American Blacks whose blood has been? Although I can't say because I've never visited Africa, but I have read this (can't remember where).

 

[Dimandja]

>Do Africans whose blood has not been diluted feel a sense of superiority over American Blacks whose blood has been?

Interesting you mentioned that. I have heard about that several times. But usually from black Americans. I really have no idea where that came from. As I mentioned earlier, young educated black Africans usually looked to black America for inspiration.

However there is something I did notice. When I first came to America, I expected to make tons of new black American friends. Things did not go exactly that way.

As anyone on this site knows, it is very difficult to make conversation when you do not have a common playing field with others.

Our racial views were definitely vastly different. Many young black Africans do not view themselves as "oppressed" in any way in American society. They only see obstacles to overcome. Consequently they tend to react very differently on perceived racial biases. This can lead to unpleasant situations.

Also, many young Africans who come to study here, do feel academically superior to their American (black or white) peers. For one, African schools (like Asian and many European schools) are cruelly competitive compared to an average American school. To succeed, one need to literaly "pump" themselves up, and face the challenges. This attitude can be perceived as expressing superiority.

Finally, many black Africans that make it over to the US are usually (and necessarily so) more educated, on the average, than those that do not make it here. (There are also many educated Africans who do not leave their countries). You will also see that many Europeans fall into this category. In fact black African immigration into the US is much more comparable to that of Europeans (education and goals) than that of any other people from other continents. It is therefore possible that, in general, these Africans would feel more comfortable in academic surroundings than in the any other section of American society. These people would tend to project a skewed overall picture of what Africans really are.

In short, black Africans in the US tend to have different aspirations and outlooks than many Americans, including a good many black Americans.

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[ToniL]

Dimandja,

I totally agree with you. I see that as well... I think the difference here is that some black Africans are oppressed in their native country, and black Americans just think they are. I came to America when I was 15 years old, and in some ways, I did feel a little ostracized, but that's because I'm female in a male dominated industry. However, I never used that as an excuse. I realized that no one was gonna give me anything, so I took it. Now, I am the Director of I.T. for a tier one auto supplier. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think that black Africans that finish their education here look at things differently because they CAN. Being from somewhere else and seing the differences in your native society and another, makes things a little clearer. Don't hate me, but I do believe that black Americans want things to be handed to them, and it's not, so that's where their "oppression" comes from.

 

[BJCooperIT]

ToniL,
The "gentleman" made a bad assumption about you based on looks. We all know what assumptions can make us. This a perfect example of a narrow focus thought process that people go through, sometimes mindlessly. Their conclusion may be based on personal experience or bias and be totally off the mark.

Examples of bad assumptions I have witnessed:
Black = African American (not always as you know}
Suit & Tie = intelligent (programmer who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag)
Unkept appearance = not to be trusted, lazy, or stupid
Elderly = hard of hearing (ever yell at someone with gray hair and perfect hearing?)
Drives Great Car = rich (actually deep in debt)
Works long hours = dedicated (incompetent?)
and the list goes on....

I like your attitude and the way you handled the situation. It will be a much better day when we label people by the nature of their souls and their accomplishments rather than ethnic or geographical backgrounds.

^{Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw}
Systems Project Analyst/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle/Windows
Author and Sole Proprietor of: Emu Products Plus

 

[CajunCenturion]

This is a wonderful discussion, but we're straying away from Language. I hope that you continue the discussion in a more appropriate forum for the subject.

Getting back to Language ...

Good Luck
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[CajunCenturion]

Oops - BJCooperIT and I were posting at the same time. She has brought us back with respect to some terms that have pre-conceived, yet often incorrect, notions.

Good Luck
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