Just to hear your take on this... 2

[ToniL]

I was conversing with a co-worker today, and we were discussing the different "identifying transitions" that Black people have gone through, i.e. Nigra, Colored, Negro, and now, African American. He asked me what I felt comfortable being called. Being facetious, I said "Toni", but I knew what he meant. I told him to me, African-American means someone who was born in a tribe in Africa who is now living in America. That does not describe me. I am a Black woman, plain and simple. I have not and do not refer to myself as African-American because of what I think it means.

I suppose that I want the forum's take on this because I have been told that I'm "systematically disenfranchising myself from the African-American community" by not referring to myself as such (like I'm Michael Jackson or somebody ).

I would like to hear from both sides of this discussion, those who see my point, and those who don't and why.

Peace
Toni L.

 

[SF0751]

For one, I agree with you. Whenever I hear Something-American, I think of that individual as being either a first- or second-generation American. (Irish-American, African-American, etc.).



Susan
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." - Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson (1894)

 

[CajunCenturion]

To me, either you're American or your not.

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[AnotherHiggins]

Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut fingers still since I'm a white man, but for what it's worth I'll throw in my two cents.

From what I've seen watching the media and American society in general - plus through talking to black friends - I think that the term "black" is coming back into vogue. My take on it is that "African American" was an example of Political Correctness run amuck. Not wanting to be labeled racist or intolerant, most white Americans quickly started using "African American" once they were told that it was the proper term.

I can see the point that "black" isn't an accurate description, but neither is "white". Maybe we should start using the terms "brown" and "pink". At least they are a more honest assessment of what most folks look like.

I, too, have wondered how each of these terms (Colored, Negro etc.) replaced its predecessor in popular usage. I think I've mentioned this in another thread, but I have some older relatives who live ‘in the country’. When I was young and heard one of them use the term "colored" I cringed. As I got older, though, I realized that "colored" was the progressive term when they were young. (NAACP, anyone?)

I don't know how one word takes prominence over another, but, as I said, I think that "black" is on the way to taking over in popular usage again.

[tt]-John[/tt]
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[sleipnir214]

I think the use of the term "African-American community" is basically disingenuous, because there's no such thing. Lumping all African-Americans/people of color/blacks into one category is dismissal of the vibrant range of character and the contributions that African-Americans/people of color/blacks have made to America.

I also think the phrase "systematically disenfranchising [your]self from the African-American community" is an attempt to constrain. Had that sentiment been uttered by some gap-toothed redneck 75 years ago, it would have been phrased along the lines of, "You're forgettin' your place, Darkie".


With a nod to CajunCenturion's post in this thread, I like your facetious response to the original question.

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[tgreer]

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[ToniL]

I disagree with

You're either American or you're not...

People can be citizens of other places and still live in America; that's not what the question was about... What I'm getting at, is just because I'm Black, that does not make me African-American... I am Cuban, but I am brown skinned... I'm Black, not African.

 

[ToniL]

"You're forgettin' your place, Darkie".

That is too funny!!! I love it!!!

I wasn't told this by a White person, it was by a Black man whom I had an "after work meeting" with. We got into the discussion, and he told me that I just didn't want to associated with 'the community', to which I said, "What are you, f@&*ing blind? Look at me?" That had to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard...

Needless to say, there was no second 'meeting'

Peace,
Toni L.

 

[ToniL]

anotherhiggins,

Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut fingers still since I'm a white man

I asked for opinions, and yours is welcome, even though you're White. That has nothing to do with your opinion, and I TOTALLY agree with you.

Peace,
Toni L.

 

[wmichael]

Once a label is applied to something, the more distinct it becomes.

Toni, you are a black woman? {African American Woman)

Why not just a woman? (Estrogen-American, if you prefer)

Why does it matter at work? (Insert job title here)

Funny, but I did not know you were black, or even a woman, from your email. I didn't realize any of this until you pointed it out to me. Frankly, especially here, I did not give a hoot.

Are you kind? Are you competent? Do you have good personal hygiene? Where did you go to school or grow up?

Just be a person. If being black is an integral part of how you define yourself, then rock on with it. Just remember that if you label yourself, others will as well. Once you are categorized, you are saddled with all sorts of expectations and stereotypes that may not make sense to you.

The only time I've seen that this type of malarkey matters is when you are applying for college in the US, a state or federal grant, or have an axe to grind against a current or former employer.

The rest is just cosmetics, really.


~wmichael

"small change can often be found under seat cushions

 

[CajunCenturion]

ToniL - We were on different wavelengths. I was looking at it from the perspective of African-Americans, Amer-Asians, Italian-Americans, or what have you. To me, either you're American or not.

I understand your issue. Race and heritage are two different things.

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[SQLSister]

wmichael, I'm falling on the floor laughing. I'm going to tell everyone from now on that I'm an Estrogen-American.

Toni, for waht it's worth, I agree with you. Calling yourself Black in no way makes you not a part of the community of others ofa simliar race and heritage. Honestly, I think the guy is a fool.

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[ToniL]

Just remember that if you label yourself, others will as well.

HUH? When I look in the mirror, I see a Black woman; when society looks at me, it sees a Black woman, that is a moot point.

Just be a person.

That would be fine if we lived in a world where the differences in outward appearance were not so obvious or if we never had to interact with people, but we don't. I didn't create the world or its idosynchratic impulses, I just live in it/with them. I see your point, though, but it is unrealistic to think that color, religion, political affiliation, etc. does not matter.



Peace,
Toni L.

SQLSister--

Honestly, I think the guy is a fool

He is more than a fool, he is cheap! He didn't even pick up the check, I DID!!

 

[ToniL]

I didn't realize any of this until you pointed it out to me

This is because you can't SEE me... But if you did, it would become VERY obvious to you that I am not White... But to hear me on the phone first, THEN to physically see me has caused more than a few people confusion. I dated this White guy (whom I later married) and "met" his parents over the phone, and they loved me to death, but when I physically met them, the look on their faces was priceless!!! Now THAT was a Prozac moment!!! His Mom just looked at me and said, "But you're Black..." I just said, "Really? Honey, do you think our kids will have stripes?" I had an awesome time that night making them uncomfortable...

 

[sleipnir214]

"But you're Black..."

I am reminded of that exchange from the movie Blazing Saddles where Cleavon Little's character (Bart) and Gene Wilder's character (Jim) first meet as Gene Wilder's character is waking up and hanging upside down from the top bunk in the drunk tank:

Bart: Are we awake?
Jim: We're not sure. Are we....black?
Bart: Yes, we are.
Jim: Then we're awake. But we're very puzzled.


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[rwong]

Hi!,

May I add my contri?
Let´s call you Toni
My grandfather was chinese, my other granfather was italian, my mother was colombian and my father was venezuelan.
I was born in Venezuela. How should I be called EuroAsianLatinAmerican?... And I probably may have some African blood in my veins, so could it be EuroAsianLatinAfricanAmerican?
I just don´t fit anywhere and fit everywhere at the same time. People just treat me with kindness and respect most of the times.
I have very special friends in every different color "Yellow", "Pink" and "Brown" and "Red", skinnys, fatties, talls and shorts and I cannot tell a difference they are all beautiful and they are all great friends!!!
I believe That is all that should count,

regards

Rick

 

[Dimandja]

I was born in Africa and am black, but I do not contemplate being called "African-American". The term is completely schizophrenic.

Being called "black" is Ok, although it needs a context that makes it relevant. I don't go around calling my friends as "Joe, the white programmer", or any other such nonsense.

Come to think of it, I didn't really see myself as "black", until I came to this race anxious society.

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[ToniL]

rwong,

While I understand what you're saying, I also know that it's unrealistic to think that how a person acts is all that matters, but here again, that's not what I'm asking. I was simply asking if it's wrong for me to reject the PC term "African-American" when referring to myself. If someone tells the police what a person looks like, you won't say, "He's not a very nice person; he stole my car; I also think that he may have been abused as a child, because he slapped me around." This has nothing to do with personality, it has to do with descriptions; physical descriptions.

Peace,
Toni L.

 

[jsteph]

ToniL,
How descriptive do you want to get? 'black woman' is fine, but that invites confusion--(I got the impression from another post that you're Cuban?), and I believe most people think of African blacks when they hear 'black woman' or 'black man'.

Yet physically, many Indians or Pakistanis are much darker than many African blacks, but they aren't generally referred to as 'blacks'. On the other hand, most dark-skinned Jamaicans (such as Colin Powell) are referred to as black, yet they aren't African. So you could break it down to Mid-African-black, Jamaican-black, North-African/Egyptian-black, Esst-Indian-Black, etc. etc.

Or, do as my daughers, 7 and 9, do when describing their friends physically. They lump everyone into three categories--dark-skinned,light-skinned, and Asian.

In our neighorhood, which is very diverse ethnically, they play and go to school with children who are Indian, Pakistan, Mexican, African, and Arab, all of whom fall into their 'dark-skinned' category, then a whole compliment of miscelleneous non-specific (or not obvious physically) European descendants, who genrally fall into the light-skinned category (with the exception of one very dark-irish boy). And several Japanese, Chinese, and one Korean girl who fall into the Asian group. Very simple.
--J

 

[hotfusion]

Regarding the expression "Nigger".
(If it matters, I'm pink, and British.)

I know this wasn't one of the names originally given by Toni, but I think it comes under the same umbrella. This name seems to now be considered an insult, but isn't it correct that this name was originally given to those people originating from the Nigeria/Niger regions of Africa? Presumably 'Negro' originated in much the same way.
If so, then it should be no more of an insult than calling me a 'Brit'.

Political correctness has a lot to answer for, but I believe when attempting cultural/racial differences, we should at least make an effort to be precise.

If a brief description is called for, vague descriptions such as 'coloured' and 'white' can suffice, as can 'short' and 'tall'. It is, after all, a description of how they appear, and should not be a suggestion of their possible origin. I would therefore view the use of an expression such as "African American" as being on very dodgy ground indeed.

Regards, Andy.
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