IT/CIS help getting started 1

[lawbones000]

I am new to these boards, so forgive if my protocols are not in order.

I have taken a few courses at a community college here in the Kansas city area. I am looking to move forward with a certificate/degree in IT or CIS. I was wondering which is the better way to go.

A certificate program is much cheaper and shorter time to a new career. A degree is more expensive and longer to invest my time in, plus I am worried that what I am getting a degree in will not be in demand when I have graduated.

I would like to be a programmer down the road but once again I am not sure what language would be best to train in.

Yes, I sound clueless as can be. I am just looking to change my career path to something more challenging and fun.

Thanks all.

 

[dogbert2]

If you want to be a programmer, better know C/C++/Java
and Visual Basic. Also, you should know how to deal
with API's for all of the above languages.

Next, know something about database systems (SQL/Oracle,
etc). Know how to write code using ODBC/JDBC to
interface to above systems.

Learn something about how networks function, learn
about hubs, switches, routers, cabling, etc.

Learn about Operating Systems (Win2K/Unix/Linux)

Learn about basic computer security and e-commerce

Now all of these things may take you a couple of
years to learn as you progress towards your certificate
or degree, but learn them YOU must if you want to
make a career in this field.

Another thing, if you are getting into the field just
for the $$$, go find some other field to work in
(auto mechanic, HVAC, plumbing, etc) probably all make
more than a IT person (or as much).

Finally, plan on being a life long learner if you are
going to work in Information Technology, as you will
be learning new things (either on the job or in the
classroom) until the day you retire (if you want to
stay current).

I hope this helps

 

[AIXSPadmin]

I disagree with the comment, "If you want to be a programmer, better know C/C++/Java and Visual Basic," a good programmer or software engineer knows the fundamentals of programming, the "science" of it and can pick up any language needed, though they may have a favorite or be better in one or a few because that is what they really like best. To learn the basics you need a good education in computer science, something that a certificate will not give you.

My own opinion and it seems to be a very touchy subject with some people. However, I don't see the value in a certificate.

The demands of IT can be more than most other professions, I generally work 2 weekends out of the month and I carry a pager on a rotating basis which I have done for 8 years. I work for a Fortune 400 company so the pay is better than elsewhere in IT. I know that because for 4.5 years I made the same as everyone else in pay and still had a pager to carry.

I have a Master's in education and someday would like to teach again and have a more normal schedule without the 2 am pager wakeup and spending an hour finding the problem. It is enjoyable at times, but I do find that after 8 years my patience has grown short and it isn't as much fun as it used to be.

Best of luck to you in your chosen career and education.

 

[onpnt]

AIXSPadmin is very correct. you don't need to know a certain handful of languages to get out there. hell, you learn control language. sql and cobol and everything seems like suedocode after that.

as for what to get education wise. both and more of both
get a degree in CS or CIS programming/analysis and then get a few cert's to get better technically tuned to certain platforms or languages you may like more and want to try and look for a career using that particular one. likely not going to happen at first though but you never know.

I disagree with this comment
Another thing, if you are getting into the field just
for the $$$, go find some other field to work in
(auto mechanic, HVAC, plumbing, etc) probably all make
more than a IT person (or as much).

they don't. being a engineer (in the beginning) in which the level of growing haults at a certain point mainly in regards to amount of income which I was unwilling to stop with it. I went back to school. double majored in programming/analysis and networking (still there because everything changes so much) and also in the middle worked for a few certificates in microcomputer, programming AS/400, web development (which I'm one that thinks they help you )
and due to this I am making far more money then I would have in the field of chemical and process engineering which is a fairly high salary position also.

most would say programmers are the top of the food chain in the IT profession, of course I agree with them being one the reasoning behind me working for this was two things. wealth (increase income) wealth (increase knowlege)

anyone starting off in a career new is not going to make the money a seasoned professional will but if you stick it out and learn as much as possible constantly you will be rewarded in this profession both by knowledge and by income.
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[meadandale]

>A certificate program is much cheaper and shorter time to >a new career. A degree is more expensive and longer to >invest my time in, plus I am worried that what I am >getting a degree in will not be in demand when I have >graduated.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I occasionally hear this misinformation and I can only wonder if it is coming from the recruiters at these certificate sweatshops. Any good CS program will teach the the fundamentals of computer science. These fundamentals have been constant for years. Yes, occasionally there are break throughs in technology but the algorithm for a merge sort has been the same for years.

Your education will not become obsolete but your certificate surely will. This is the difference between theory and practice. Professionals grounded in theory can always learn the practice but the reverse is not necessarilly the case.

 

[dogbert2]

One thing that most persons fail to take into consideration
is that the phrase 'certifications will become obsolete' is
incorrect also. The basic knowledge of routing will
remain the same for many years to come, the basic operation
of a computer will remain the same, etc.

The goal here is to be able to adapt to new learning
situation by developing your critical thinking and
analysis skills (I call these my 'bag of tricks'). When
you get your first entry level job in I.T. (mine was
over 20 years ago at the local Univ.), you may not have
the best skillset in the world, but as time goes on, you
should be able to improve your knowledge and training.

Remember, if you are going to remain in this field, you
will be a student of some sort for the rest of your
career (if you want to remain competitive).

 

[meadandale]

>One thing that most persons fail to take into consideration
>is that the phrase 'certifications will become obsolete' is
>incorrect also. The basic knowledge of routing will
>remain the same for many years to come, the basic operation
>of a computer will remain the same, etc.

Hmmm, so those that got MCSE certifications with Windows NT are not going to have issues when they sunset that cert?

Assuming that your cert teaches you 'basic knowledge' such as routing theory, you are correct, this information will not become obsolete. Of course, I learned this same information at a university without the vendor bias that something like a CCNE gives you. I learned 'routing theory' not 'Cisco routing theory'.

Certs become useless when the vendor decides to update the hardware/software. Education doesn't. If you've gotten educated while obtaining the cert then you have benefitted but the cert will be useless in time and will not be usable on a resume. A degree has no such limitations.

 

[AIXSPadmin]

My degree's contain the phrase "WHO IS ENTITLED TO ENJOY ALL THE RIGHTS, HONOR AND PRIVILEGES PERTAINING TO THAT DEGREE".

I don't have any certificates, but I would guess they do not contain any verbage like the above, because they have no value and after the next version comes out a new certification comes along with it. Why? To make money for whomever you are taking the test from and also the vendor.

If you see a job posting that states, "Bachelor's degree or higher," then chances are if you apply for the job and state that you have no degree but certifications, then don't expect a reply. Almost guaranteed. Especially today with they economy. Maybe 5 years ago in the boom times you could apply for a high-tech job and say "hey, I can use a mouse" and they hired you at $50k, but those days are gone.

A certificate is no replacement for a formal education. Also, I wonder why anyone would spend the money for one? Anyone can go to Barnes & Noble or Border's and buy a certification study guide that contains questions/answers and all the study material; one can read this and do hands-on at home and learn what they need (of course, there is no instructor to answer questions, but no huge deal really); otherwise, you just pay a lot of money to a commercial business to give you a sheet of paper that says you know Java 1.2.

 

[Tarwn]

I actually considered taking a cert for ASP once...then I thought about it. Other than curiosity, why bother? I know I am good with it, anybody who sees me work with it knows I am good with it, anyone who sees my code knows I am good with it. Why should I get a certification?
Reread the last statement. Certifications originally meant you had skill and you were merely getting documentation of that skill. Now they mean anything from you have a certified set of skills to you crammed and passed a single test, or you paid a lot of money to learn only what you needed to pass a single test.

The reason cert's aren't as good as they were even a few years ago is not because they don't teach you anything, it's because to many people cheat by only learning what they are expecting to see on the test. That makes a certification useless because than you can hold it up next to a 20 year network engineer with the same cert and say you know just as much as they do.

And yes it is cheating. Every person that has taken the "2 week course to your whatever" and crammed on the material for a week or two before the cert has cheated. You have received a piece of paper that certifies your knowledge in an area that you have little to no experience in. Yes some of these materials are used by people to refresh their memory or prepare themselves, but when people started misusing these materials than certs started down the road to becoming useless pieces of paper.

-Tarwn ________________________________________________________________________________
Want to get great answers to your Tek-Tips questions? Have a look at faq333-2924

 

[ststokes]

I have to agree with the opinion of getting an education instead of a certification. A CS education but no experience is going to give you a good foundation that you can build on. A certification and no experience is going to get your resume in my trashcan before I even blink. Since I hire people and have for years and talk to my friends about it I can tell you the impression we all get when someone walks in certified before they have experience. It means that you learned how to take a test. That is what all of those "boot camps" do.

So, if you want to get a chance, get an education. Scott

 

[CajunCenturion]

The debate about certificate vs formal education (degree) has been discussed at lenght in many threads of this forum, and I invite to you read some of these other threads. Its no secret that I am in the degree camp.

I would also like to pose the following questions:

1. How many certificates have the name of a specific vendor in them?
2. How many certificates do not have the name of a specific vendor in them?
3. How many university degrees have the name of the specific vendor in them?
4. How many university degrees do not have the name of a specific vendor in them?

It should be clear from the answers to the above questions that certificates are being driven by the vendors for the purposes of selling their equipment. They want people to know how to use their equipment so that those people will continue to buy from that vendor. These vendors are not in the education business, they are in the product business, using certificates as a marketing tool. In other words, certificates are for specific products.

Universities on the other hand, are in the education business. Their product is education itself, and its the quality of the education provided that reflects back on the institution by reputation thru its graduates. In other words, degrees are for industry education.

So, if you want to learn how to use a specific product - get a certificate. If you want to learn about this industry - get a degree. Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[dogbert2]

This debate is worse than beating a dead horse, short answer, is whatever works for the person at hand. I just wish more tech schools actually did testing to see if the person has 'a knack' for this line of work.

I took the ASVAB in high school, and it showed I had a poor mechanical ability, in addition to spatial relationships (i.e. - I could take your car apart and put it back together, and have parts left over). Thus, I wouldn't make a very good car mechanic/technician. I always say to pursue a career that you love, rather than one which has the lure of $$$$ involved.

 

[MasterRacker]

I woudn't necessarily put too much stock in a aptitude tests. They have shortcomings also. I have a good friend who took one about a dozen years ago. The advisor told him after the test that he scored very low in spatial relationships nd manual dexterity and told him he should stay away from jobs that would require fine motor control. An interesting result since at that very time he was playing tournament pool at a level where he was competitive with semi-pros and he was also a bass player in a band.

It may have been a fault in the test or in intrepretation of the results, but the point is that testing can only tell you so much and even what it tells you may be suspect.
Jeff
If your mind is too open your brains will fall out...

 

[algernonsidney]

The best way is to choose another field and forget about going into IT/CIS. Why would anybody go into this?

Chris

 

[CajunCenturion]

People will go into IT because they
1) Enjoy It
2) Are Good at It.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[algernonsidney]

Your best move is to get out of this and go into something else. I can't believe people still want to go into this field. Thousands are leaving, and many of them did very well.

Chris

 

[dogbert2]

Blame Dot-Com/Bomb for this mess, just like the california gold rush of 1848. The people who got rich were the ones selling picks, shovels, supplies, food, tents, housing, etc.

Most everyone else went home after the rush went kaboom.

 

[AIXSPadmin]

I read different studies that say people in IT that lost their job are leaving the field at tremendous rates, and I also read studies that say IT pros that lose their jobs or just leave the field is 10%.

To me, one would have to read the complete study, data and all to find the true answer, along with who produced the study to begin with. This is the same as the Linux vs. Windows studies on performance, security or whatever; some of the studies that are favorable to Microsoft were funded by MS. Not much stock can be put in a study if it was funded by the vendor. A study has to be neutral.

As for where IT is going, I have no idea. The pay has dropped in many fields from what it was 5 years ago, but I think that was because the IT market was in a situation that a lot of companies like Enron found themselves in. They were paying more for the stock than the company was actually worth. Likewise, many compnaies were paying for IT people that did not have qualifications and also to get people the pay was increased.

If you work for a company, large, small, whichever size; downtime will cost them money. If a major system or application has a cost of $100 and you have 200 people using it, then downtime costs $20,000. A lot of money and companies will pay for knowledge so you can get that system up as fast as possible. 15 minutes vs 1 hour is a lot of money.

Having said that, most IT people are not working for a company with that significant amounts of money on the line. And most of what is entailed in daily IT jobs is not extremely difficult. I have been in IT for 8 years and work for a Fortune 500 company now and worked before for a medium size company. Now, there is so much compartmentalization that you don't have to know as much as I did before, the pay is higher because it is a Fortune 500 company, but truth-be-told I enjoyed the other job more because I could do a lot of different things. With the exception of the SP complex and knowing PSSP, the tasks are not something that warrants huge amounts of money to be honest. Anyone with any skill can pick up PSSP, but like I said the pay is high because of the company size.

To conclude, most IT does not have anything that would need huge pay. I said in the previous paragraphs that IT was like Enron, and I stand by that. Because of the slicing of the pie so to speak at my company, some hardly know networking because they don't have to do it, data comm does. So why the high pay? Because it is Fortune 500. Just because it is IT doesn't mean that it should automatically pay a lot more than a mechanic or another profession.

I believe I am good in IT and it comes easy, but at the same time, moving to another field is still in the back of my mind. Doing what I don't know, maybe I am disaffected by the current situation and feel bored (I am).

Anyway, if anyone made it through my complete posting, have a good day and a good week. And have fun and laugh. Life is too short to be taken seriously (most of the time.)

 

[CajunCenturion]

Your conflicting statement about the diversity in the attritions rates in IT is very true. One of the reasons is, surprisingly, there is no consistent definition of just what IT encompasses, and what it does not. I know of at least one company where the IT department does not consist of any of the software programmers. The network admins, sys admins, and the help desk were in the IT, but the programmers were part of an engineering department. And sometimes you'll find programmers in the R&D department.

To understand any of the surveys, you must be careful in that you know what they are measuring, and how they are obtaining their data.

To answer the question where is IT going, I would first ask, what do you consider IT to be? Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein