Is proper grammar a lost art? 1

[Paul4Meep]

More and more these days, I begin to wonder if proper grammar is a lost art. All I know is that my high school and college both crammed it down our throats. However, I often answer customer e-mails for my company, and wonder what ever happened to grammar.

Nevermind the customer e-mails. Who really cares about being perfectionistic with your grammar, punctuation, etc. in your personal life? Well, I still do, but I'm weird.

What I'm talking about in this thread is my co-workers. Often times, an issue may take several e-mails to resolve. This means, if I get such an e-mail, I need to look at the customer's history to find the related e-mails and see what they have said, and my co-workers have said in response thus far.

In doing so, I am shocked at what passes for good grammar, punctuation, etc. amongst my co-workers. They are representing our company! The saddest thing about it is that some of the worst people are the actual e-mail reps! (We have a group of dedicated e-mail reps who are the senior e-mail people. They answer e-mails, answer employee questions regarding how to answer an e-mail, all escalated issues through e-mail are sent to them....)

Sometimes, even with these top level e-mail folks, I'm forced to read their response to an e-mail over and over again, and I'm still left with a puzzled look on my face saying "HUH?!" as I rub my beard in confusion.

Another thing that drives me a little crazy that even our top level e-mail reps do: When you represent the company, there is no "I," there is no "me," there is only "We." "We are sorry for any inconvenience," not, "I'm sorry to hear that happened to you." "We will check into the issue and get back to you when it has been resolved," not, "I will look into this and contact you later." I mean, come on. That is actually one of the first things this company teaches us when you start as a customer service rep!

 

[deputydoofy]

It's ok to blame it on the customers who place their orders today, yet demand the delivery to arrive yesterday.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doofymusic

 

[strongm]

>"I danced down the middle of the street (Sometimes I do that, but not always. I guess it depends on my mood in the morning.) shouting that the beavers were trying to steel my can of beans."

Two viable solutions:

1) Change the period for a semi colon and drop the terminating period:
I danced down the middle of the street (sometimes I do that, but not always; I guess it depends on my mood in the morning) shouting that the beavers were trying to steel my can of beans.

2) Move the parenthetical statement outside the sentence:
I danced down the middle of the street shouting that the beavers were trying to steel my can of beans. (Sometimes I do that, but not always. I guess it depends on my mood in the morning.)

 

[SF0751]

Also, most cans are aluminum, but I'm not sure why beavers would want to reinforce the can by coating it with steel.

Or were the beavers attempting to steal the can of beans?

Susan
"'I wish life was not so short,' he thought. 'Languages take such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'"
- J. R. R. Tolkien, The Lost Road

 

[AnotherHiggins]

I slapped him across the face (later I wondered if this were [red]was[/red] crazy) while calling him a smelly lemur.

Sorry, I couldn't resist pointing this one out. But hey, if you wander into a forum dedicated to, [ul]".... word usage, grammar, and related topics ...."[/ul]and make a statement like, [ul]"Who really cares about being perfectionistic with your grammar, punctuation, etc. in your personal life? Well, I still do, but I'm weird.",[/ul]you've got to expect a little ribbing for mistakes such as these.

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[/tt][red]Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur[/red]

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[Paul4Meep]

It's ok to blame it on the customers who place their orders today, yet demand the delivery to arrive yesterday.

LOL! Really! I can't believe people sometimes. I mean, we are mail order, not magicians, folks. "Why haven't my meds come yet?" "Okay, sir, let me check. Hmm... it says here you placed your order yesterday." "Yeah. Why don't I have my meds yet?" You know what else drives me crazy? People who wait until the last minute to order their meds (like when they have three pills left) and then expect miracles. This is especially funny when they order on a Friday and seem to forget that mail isn't delivered on Sunday.

1) Change the period for a semi colon and drop the terminating period:
I danced down the middle of the street (sometimes I do that, but not always; I guess it depends on my mood in the morning) shouting that the beavers were trying to steel my can of beans.

Hey, good suggestion! That should work.

2) Move the parenthetical statement outside the sentence:
I danced down the middle of the street shouting that the beavers were trying to steel my can of beans. (Sometimes I do that, but not always. I guess it depends on my mood in the morning.)

The only problem with that is that it could possibly change the meaning a bit. What if I meant that I sometimes dance down the middle of the street, but not necessarily screaming that same statement?

Also, most cans are aluminum, but I'm not sure why beavers would want to reinforce the can by coating it with steel.

Or were the beavers attempting to steal the can of beans?

LOL! All right, all right, smarty pants. I get the point, I made another typo. I REALLY must need sleep. Of course, this thread is about the lack of good grammar, spelling, etc. for professional purposes. I did say that nobody should care for personal, less formal things. I'd certainly describe this thread as a personal, less formal, more laid back setting. Actually, I'm usually really perfectionistic about my own grammar, punctuation, etc. even then. I just get lazy when it comes to message boards. Sometimes, I type such long messages. I just don't feel like reading them again before posting.

 

[strongm]

>it could possibly change the meaning a bit

Indeed so. And on those occasssions one might want to consider rephrasing ...

 

[Paul4Meep]

Actually, anotherhiggins, correct me if I am still wrong, but I think it is correct the way I was thinking. In saying...

"I slapped him across the face (later I wondered if this were crazy)

I more so meant the action of doing so at all, NOT that isolated incident of doing so. Do you get what I mean? I'm not sure if I explained that correctly. I guess, another way to put it would be saying "I wonder if it would be crazy to do that.

 

[Paul4Meep]

Indeed so. And on those occasssions one might want to consider rephrasing ...

Yeah, they weren't exactly the best examples. They were just the best I could think of off the top of my head. In the case of my examples, it probably would be better to arrange the sentence somehow differently. I just needed examples, though.

 

[deputydoofy]

I agree more with grammatical correctness (is that like political correctness - I hope not) when it comes to a professional situation.
It's one thing to have bad grammar on the phone (which I personally don't like), but it's worse when it's in writing and can be seen by anyone.
Of course, here's an example of bad grammar spoken on the phone here:
"To whom am I speaking with?"
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! (Pretty sure I spelled that right. )

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[Paul4Meep]

It's one thing to have bad grammar on the phone (which I personally don't like), but it's worse when it's in writing and can be seen by anyone.

Actually, in a professional situation, it is still pretty bad to have bad grammar on the phone. You are so right, though. In writing it is so much worse. That is so much more permanent. I can just picture some angry customers printing out the poorly written e-mail responses and showing them to other potential customers. "Look, they don't even know which witch is which, whether its weather or whether, or if it should be they're, their, or there. How well do you think they can do with your order?"

Of course, here's an example of bad grammar spoken on the phone here:
"To whom am I speaking with?"

LOL! Have you actually heard people say that here? Wow! They almost got it right! If you've actually heard that exact quote, I have to give them some kudos for actually knowing when to use "whom." Kinda blows it at the end, though.

 

[tgreer]

From my son's High School, regarding an optional PSAT test. This is an exact quote:

Q. Should I take the test?

A. Sure, specially if your college-bound.




Thomas D. Greer

Providing PostScript & PDF
Training, Development & Consulting

 

[AnotherHiggins]

Actually, anotherhiggins, correct me if I am still wrong, but I think it is correct the way I was thinking. In saying...

"I slapped him across the face (later I wondered if this were crazy)

I more so meant the action of doing so at all, NOT that isolated incident of doing so. Do you get what I mean? I'm not sure if I explained that correctly. I guess, another way to put it would be saying "I wonder if it would be crazy to do that."

Nope, it should be 'was'. ‘Were’ is called for in "I think they were angry about..." because 'they' is plural. But you said 'this', which refers to an action (slapping him across the face). That is singular and therefore calls for 'was'.

I think 'were' would be called for in the past subjunctive or past conjunctive or something like that. But I'll readily admit that I'm no grammarian, so I'll leave a detailed explanation up to one of our more erudite members[red][sup]*[/sup][/red].

[red][sup]*[/sup][/red]Speaking of erudite grammarians, has anybody heard from CajunCenturion since the hurricane?

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[/tt][red]Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur[/red]

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[deputydoofy]

It's so bad at our work that another coworker and I have fun making up new words that we think other people will believe are real.
Travellage (still don't know if I'm spelling it "correctly") - travel and mileage combined. I can't tell you how much travellage I've acquired today just walking up and down the call-center floor.

Phoniquity - the art of being phony. I prefer the form, Phoniquitous.

We had some others, but only these 2 stick in my mind.

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[TheRambler]

deputydoofy
Take a look at thread1256-1063504
What's Your Favorite Word (That's Not in the Dictionary)?

According to jebenson these words were called "sniglets" by comedian Rich Hall. I found they were called "portmanteaux" by Lewis Carroll, which sounds rather French to me, so I prefer to call them word blends.

anotherhiggins
I have noticed CajunCenturion has logged in yesterday and today, so he must be right, don't worry.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think that when dealing with the subjunctive, verb tense is the key operative. Whenever the verb is in past tense (wondered), then 'were' should be used for all persons.
[li]I wondered if I were crazy.[/li]
[li]I wondered if you were crazy.[/li]
[li]I wondered in they were crazy.[/li]
I don't think that that using pronouns affects this rule.

That being said, the subjunctive is a carry over from Old English, and as is true for many such rules, is no longer strictly adhered to, especially in the first person.


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[strongm]

I don't think that the example we are looking at is a subjunctive, though.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I would agree that the "I slapped him across the face" is in indicative mood, but I think the uncertainty of 'wondering' puts the "I wondered if this were crazy" clause in the subjunctive mood.

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[AnotherHiggins]

What strongm said. The subjunctive would call for 'were', but the example, "I slapped him across the face (later I wondered if this were crazy)" isn't subjunctive, is it?

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[CajunCenturion]

What would make the "I wondered if this were crazy" clause not subjunctive?

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[Paul4Meep]

From my son's High School, regarding an optional PSAT test. This is an exact quote:

Q. Should I take the test?

A. Sure, specially if your college-bound.

LOL! That's a great one! I love when something THAT official has a mistake like that. Actually, doesn't that test actually even test grammar and other language stuff? I can't remember. My days of taking that test have long since passed me by.

Nope, it should be 'was'. ‘Were’ is called for in "I think they were angry about..." because 'they' is plural. But you said 'this', which refers to an action (slapping him across the face). That is singular and therefore calls for 'was'.

I was just kinda thinking of an example such as "I wish you were here," when I figured the way I said it was probably correct. That's not plural, but "were" is correct. LOL! "I wish you was here." Maybe I'm too easily amused, but that really gives me a chuckle. Anyway, is my example not in the same vein? Hey, how did you do the quote within a quote thing? Is it just [*quote some crazy guy*] Stop touching my shoe horn [*quote some other crazy guy*] HA HA! I'm touching your shoe horn![*/quote][*/quote] (ignoring, of course, the *'s which I just put in so it wouldn't actually think it was a quote)?

It's so bad at our work that another coworker and I have fun making up new words that we think other people will believe are real.

Does it ever work? Does anybody actually start thinking any of them are real words? I really want to hear somebody walk by using one of them, and acting like they think it makes them so smart. LOL!

deputydoofy
Take a look at thread1256-1063504
What's Your Favorite Word (That's Not in the Dictionary)?

Sweet! I want to check this one out too!

I think that when dealing with the subjunctive, verb tense is the key operative. Whenever the verb is in past tense (wondered), then 'were' should be used for all persons.
• I wondered if I were crazy.
• I wondered if you were crazy.
• I wondered in they were crazy.
I don't think that that using pronouns affects this rule.

Wait, so are you saying "were" was correct in my example?

I kinda think we have an example of where, these days, either way would be considered acceptable. For one thing, other than those of us still pondering this question (myself included) ;-) , who would care which is actually right? LOL! I'm just really perfectionistic about my own grammar.