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If you could do it over again, would you? 1
- Thread starter MattGreer
- Start date
BS in CS, only graduated a couple years ago but I would definately do it again. While I could have learned my way through a couple languages during that same time in my own free time, I learned a lot more at Unie than just a couple languages and have to say it would have taken me a lot longer to learn that stuff (as well as get this job that was only offered to graduates, not publicly) to the degree I know it now.
The depth and breadth of the content covered while getting my degree opened up a lot of side fields for me and I'm looking forward to going back for a Masters in a few years.
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The never-completed website:
The depth and breadth of the content covered while getting my degree opened up a lot of side fields for me and I'm looking forward to going back for a Masters in a few years.
-T
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The never-completed website:
Stella740pl
Programmer
Matt,
I have Master's in Applied Math/Computer Science. Now, years later, having a full time job and a family, I would be reluctant to go back to school, but I would regret if I haven't had it. But if I could go back in time, I would definitely do it again. Besides the education that broadened my horizons in life in general and with regard to the jobs I could do; my degree sometimes helped me land better-paying positions than I would get with self-taught skills and experience only. There is one concern, though, the market seem to be down for computer professionals. A few of my unemployed friends and relatives actually went to study for new trades, which actually require less education. But I don’t think this was a completely necessary step. I guess with a degree you could try to get a job in a different area if a need arises.
I asked my husband, who has PhD in a different area (also technical), and he said that if he could/had to go back, he would totally and unconditionally do it all over again.
Stella
Stella, Your comments abuor your husband definately would go back, interests me. I am currently trying to decide whether to get my PhD or not. I am considering teaching at a university, but I also need a break. Does he teach?
As for the thread questions, definately, without a doubt would I go back to get my degree! I received a BS in CIS at Devry and currently pursuing my MISM.
As Tarwn stated above, I could have studied languages on my own, however I developed and honed skills that have helped me incredibly in my current job. Writing proposals, analyzing data, documenting everything, buidling use cases, etc...the list goes on.
I am so glad I acheived my degree! Definately the best investment I ever made. Plus, one reason I decided to get my degree is I never wanted to be held back from any job simply because I didn't have one.
As for the thread questions, definately, without a doubt would I go back to get my degree! I received a BS in CIS at Devry and currently pursuing my MISM.
As Tarwn stated above, I could have studied languages on my own, however I developed and honed skills that have helped me incredibly in my current job. Writing proposals, analyzing data, documenting everything, buidling use cases, etc...the list goes on.
I am so glad I acheived my degree! Definately the best investment I ever made. Plus, one reason I decided to get my degree is I never wanted to be held back from any job simply because I didn't have one.
- Thread starter
- #5
I guess in a way I'm wondering how much a degree will get you "advanced" over the self-taught techies out there. I'm considering going back to school for a Masters in either IS or CS. I can't decide which at this point in time. I have a BS in Chemical Engineering and I've been basically a software engineer for the past 8 years (using a programming language that is unique to my company and therefore not marketable). My interests lie in computers so I figure I should head that route.
Thanks!!
Matt
Thanks!!
Matt
Stella740pl
Programmer
Onyxpurr,
Yes, all his life he either teaching, researching (and publishing the results in articles), or combining both, and always in universities. He prefers research to teaching, but doesn't mind teaching, too, especially to graduate students. He had to live in different countries with very different needs, but having quality education helped him to switch between different fields, so now he is a broad-spectrum scientist.
Keep in mind, though, that in many fields full-time university positions are extremely hard to find, much less to get into. Adjunct positions are more widely available. Also, research positions in some fields require clearance.
Yes, all his life he either teaching, researching (and publishing the results in articles), or combining both, and always in universities. He prefers research to teaching, but doesn't mind teaching, too, especially to graduate students. He had to live in different countries with very different needs, but having quality education helped him to switch between different fields, so now he is a broad-spectrum scientist.
Keep in mind, though, that in many fields full-time university positions are extremely hard to find, much less to get into. Adjunct positions are more widely available. Also, research positions in some fields require clearance.
screwloose
MIS
Matt,
I depends where your interests lie. If you are into pure computer science then get the Masters in Comp Sci, however, a Masters in MIS will give you a lot of opportunities not only within the IT field, but also in the business sector.
When I talked to my supervising graduate professor (Master’s in Education) he said that a PhD is EXTREMELY marketable because there are very few and colleges and universities were paying a premium.
Also, a PhD is a terminal degree and usually one works in research, for say IBM Research, or as a university professor who also does research in addition to teaching.
As I said in the first sentence, it depends greatly on your interests.
Onyxpurr,
As I mentioned, getting a PhD means one wishes to work in research and/or teach. In a large university such as the University of Texas, most professors teach 6 hours and the rest of the time is devoted to research. To gain tenure, one has to publish articles in refereed journals within a time of (usually) 7 years. At that time, if one does not have tenure then they are usually removed from their position.
I have always wished I would have gone on to get my PhD (I want to teach at a smaller 4-year college or university and devote my time to teaching (hence not wanting a large university with research, though I do like research)). I constantly think about it, and in the time I have been out of school I would have had it if I would have done it instead of thinking about it.
Another thing to consider about teaching at a university with a PhD. You don’t start in a position (normally) as a full professor, but probably an assistant professor. And the pay for professors at that level is not that high, you would earn more working for a commercial enterprise. Saying that though, the benefits for education are very good and would provide a nice retirement.
I depends where your interests lie. If you are into pure computer science then get the Masters in Comp Sci, however, a Masters in MIS will give you a lot of opportunities not only within the IT field, but also in the business sector.
When I talked to my supervising graduate professor (Master’s in Education) he said that a PhD is EXTREMELY marketable because there are very few and colleges and universities were paying a premium.
Also, a PhD is a terminal degree and usually one works in research, for say IBM Research, or as a university professor who also does research in addition to teaching.
As I said in the first sentence, it depends greatly on your interests.
Onyxpurr,
As I mentioned, getting a PhD means one wishes to work in research and/or teach. In a large university such as the University of Texas, most professors teach 6 hours and the rest of the time is devoted to research. To gain tenure, one has to publish articles in refereed journals within a time of (usually) 7 years. At that time, if one does not have tenure then they are usually removed from their position.
I have always wished I would have gone on to get my PhD (I want to teach at a smaller 4-year college or university and devote my time to teaching (hence not wanting a large university with research, though I do like research)). I constantly think about it, and in the time I have been out of school I would have had it if I would have done it instead of thinking about it.
Another thing to consider about teaching at a university with a PhD. You don’t start in a position (normally) as a full professor, but probably an assistant professor. And the pay for professors at that level is not that high, you would earn more working for a commercial enterprise. Saying that though, the benefits for education are very good and would provide a nice retirement.
I think the single biggest advantage I received over self-taught experience is tat I was taught basics underlying the logic of the languages and I was taught how to learn (better). Learning something has always been a skill of mine, but with the basics I learned and practiced in university settings combined with better learning techniques and experience learning things in this field, I can pick up new lnguages ata drop of a hat and sometimes understandthem beter than people who have been using them a couple years or more.
I offer ASP as an example. While not a complicated language, there are plenty of examples of people who have spent a few years writing it badly. I wrote it badly for a time, then less than a year and a half after first touching it I went on to sit at the top of the ASP forums here for 14 months straight.
I'm sure I could have learned the language without a college education, and a masters will not polish that single skill much more, but the more theory I learn and the more I was led towards learning on my own and researching the underlying logic of languages/processes/etc, the better I am able to apply those skills across the board.
I by no means want to put down the programmers who have learned from experience only, but I think the broader education of a university makes for a better foundation later on. You may graduate knowing less about a specific language or process than someone that has been using that process for the same several years, but you also will have a beter understanding not only of what is possible, but what is a limitation of that specific process as opposed to all the processes similar to it.
Last Example: If you master Cisco switches, you get a little bit of knowledge to help you setting up a network using non-Cisco equipment, but you approach the problem as if it were a Cisco switch. Getting a broader education about switches in general may make the first few Cisco install more difficult, but you will be ahead of the Cisco-only candidate when it comes to Product X switches because your knowledge assumes things on a switch level while the other candidats knowledge assumes things on the Cisco switch level.
Hope that was clear, if not I can take another swing at it
-T
01000111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100101 01100101 00111111
The never-completed website:
I offer ASP as an example. While not a complicated language, there are plenty of examples of people who have spent a few years writing it badly. I wrote it badly for a time, then less than a year and a half after first touching it I went on to sit at the top of the ASP forums here for 14 months straight.
I'm sure I could have learned the language without a college education, and a masters will not polish that single skill much more, but the more theory I learn and the more I was led towards learning on my own and researching the underlying logic of languages/processes/etc, the better I am able to apply those skills across the board.
I by no means want to put down the programmers who have learned from experience only, but I think the broader education of a university makes for a better foundation later on. You may graduate knowing less about a specific language or process than someone that has been using that process for the same several years, but you also will have a beter understanding not only of what is possible, but what is a limitation of that specific process as opposed to all the processes similar to it.
Last Example: If you master Cisco switches, you get a little bit of knowledge to help you setting up a network using non-Cisco equipment, but you approach the problem as if it were a Cisco switch. Getting a broader education about switches in general may make the first few Cisco install more difficult, but you will be ahead of the Cisco-only candidate when it comes to Product X switches because your knowledge assumes things on a switch level while the other candidats knowledge assumes things on the Cisco switch level.
Hope that was clear, if not I can take another swing at it
-T
01000111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100101 01100101 00111111
The never-completed website:
screwloose
MIS
I meant to say the PhD in MIS is extremely marketable.
Bachelor of Science, Major in Computer Information Systems, Minor in Business Administration... Graduated '88
Do it again? Yes, tho' it's a moot point since we have no chance of a "do-over"... there are other things I wish I'd done differently...
Still, we are who we are because of where we've been and what we've done... I am who I am because of the choices I have made and how I have dealt with the consequences of those choices--and most especially the Grace of God...
I'm okay where I'm at... Yes, I'd like more money; but we have enought to keep a little rice and kimchi on the table... ;-)
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
Do it again? Yes, tho' it's a moot point since we have no chance of a "do-over"... there are other things I wish I'd done differently...
Still, we are who we are because of where we've been and what we've done... I am who I am because of the choices I have made and how I have dealt with the consequences of those choices--and most especially the Grace of God...
I'm okay where I'm at... Yes, I'd like more money; but we have enought to keep a little rice and kimchi on the table... ;-)
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
I attended a university for five years, most of that time wasted by not attending class and never turning in assigments; I never did graduate. However, the time I did spend in class gave me the foundation I needed to start learning the things I WANTED to learn at a pace that better suited me. I picked up (and mastered) MS Access and Visual Basic on my own and now have a firm grasp on the C# language. I'm currently learning graphics w/ GDI+ and DirectX and will be leaving my current job in two more weeks (YEAH!!!) to start my own company.
Looking back... I definitely wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't received some formal education in Computer Science. I can't tell you how many times in the past four years (since I've quit college) I've thought to myself "So that's what the professor meant!" after finally using a programming skill in a real world application. Nothing is more discouraging than having algorithms and theory crammed down your throat that seem to have no practical value at the time. A class in database theory sure would have helped (although we did have a 2 weeks crash course in Access at the end of one class which sparked my interest just enough for me to continue studying it on my own). Getting into graphics now, I finally see how valuable Trigonometry, Calculus, and Statistics can be. It seems like universities and high schools spend so much time on the HowTo's they forget to teach WHY we would need or want to do such things in the first place. Although someone with a BS in CS may have a more well rounded knowledge of lots of different things, 90% of those things will be forgotten within the next 10 years because the person will never actually use those skills. I, on the other hand, know how to apply my knowledge to practical applications in the real world. No amount of education can ever match the value of real world experience. Sure, I'd love to have that piece of paper in my posession that says I am "recognized" as having passed some fabricated requirements, but it's by no means necessary to become successful. That piece of paper guarantees you nothing. IMO, a combination of formal education and self-taught concepts is the way to go.
Looking back... I definitely wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't received some formal education in Computer Science. I can't tell you how many times in the past four years (since I've quit college) I've thought to myself "So that's what the professor meant!" after finally using a programming skill in a real world application. Nothing is more discouraging than having algorithms and theory crammed down your throat that seem to have no practical value at the time. A class in database theory sure would have helped (although we did have a 2 weeks crash course in Access at the end of one class which sparked my interest just enough for me to continue studying it on my own). Getting into graphics now, I finally see how valuable Trigonometry, Calculus, and Statistics can be. It seems like universities and high schools spend so much time on the HowTo's they forget to teach WHY we would need or want to do such things in the first place. Although someone with a BS in CS may have a more well rounded knowledge of lots of different things, 90% of those things will be forgotten within the next 10 years because the person will never actually use those skills. I, on the other hand, know how to apply my knowledge to practical applications in the real world. No amount of education can ever match the value of real world experience. Sure, I'd love to have that piece of paper in my posession that says I am "recognized" as having passed some fabricated requirements, but it's by no means necessary to become successful. That piece of paper guarantees you nothing. IMO, a combination of formal education and self-taught concepts is the way to go.
- Thread starter
- #12
Yes. But at what cost? They might be, and in many cases are, paying off their school loans for years to come. Are they really any better off? Not to mention the 4-8 years of their life they had to spend in school while the self-taught techie could find themselves a decent position for 50k+ a year. How many years will it take the graduate making 60k or 70k+ to catch up, assuming they don't get laid off of course?
screwloose
MIS
More negative rants against an education. It seems those who deride getting a college education are those who lack one.
And to conclude that a "self-taught techie" is going to be earning $50k at the age of 22 is ridiculous. Most people never reach that after working for 40 years. And a graduate making $60k or $70k upon graduation doesn't happen, at least not for a bachelor's degree.
It is delusional to think that an uneducated person will make more than an educated person, or that the uneducated person will have the same or more opportunities than the educated. Though there are cases where this proves true, it is not the norm.
And to conclude that a "self-taught techie" is going to be earning $50k at the age of 22 is ridiculous. Most people never reach that after working for 40 years. And a graduate making $60k or $70k upon graduation doesn't happen, at least not for a bachelor's degree.
It is delusional to think that an uneducated person will make more than an educated person, or that the uneducated person will have the same or more opportunities than the educated. Though there are cases where this proves true, it is not the norm.
Stella740pl
Programmer
keyser456, it seems like you are saying that what you did learn in college, proved to be of value to you, and what you didn't learn, you didn't need in the first place.
What I can agree with you, though, is that often "universities and high schools spend so much time on the HowTo's they forget to teach WHY we would need or want to do such things in the first place". Once in a while it was the case and I didn't know what I was going to do with this or that subject/piece of information. I do now, though. I certainly know now why I studied foreign language (yes, it was English), and why I needed theory of relational databases, and all the math, and many other things.
Of course, “no amount of education can ever match the value of real world experience” – but who says you can get only one or the other? Each of them proves more valuable in the presence of the other.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Talk about a non sequitur.keyser456 said:
Are you without a degree speaking from experience?keyser456 said:
What you don't seem to realize is how much the education enriches the experiences.keyser456 said:
From another thread in a different forum:
Could that be related to all that time you wasted not attending class?keyser456 said:
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
So nice to see college has taught at least a few of you "scholars" how to read (and wow, look, someone even knows how to use the quote feature). My post wasn't a rant; in fact I flat out admitted formal education gives you a more well rounded knowledge of computers. The question was: if I could do it again, would I. My answer was no, and I backed up my reasons. Though I never got that piece of paper that you people place so much important on, I consider myself ahead of the game having dropped out when I did.
I don't care where you graduated from or how flowery your vocabulary has become. (non sequitur? Seriously???)
If you're going to label me as someone who's deriding a college education because I'm lacking one, I believe it would be fair to label all of you as people who are just trying to justify the thousands of dollars and years of their lives they've spent in college, time someone else could have spent making money in the real world while gaining practical experience.
I don't care where you graduated from or how flowery your vocabulary has become. (non sequitur? Seriously???)
If you're going to label me as someone who's deriding a college education because I'm lacking one, I believe it would be fair to label all of you as people who are just trying to justify the thousands of dollars and years of their lives they've spent in college, time someone else could have spent making money in the real world while gaining practical experience.
Stella740pl
Programmer
"Though I never got that piece of paper that you people place so much important on, I consider myself ahead of the game having dropped out when I did."
You mean, after 5 wasted years and, probably, a lot of money?
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1
- #19
If it doesn't bother you, why are you being "sarcastic" in your reply and insulting to those of us who decided to enrich our lives by attending college and sticking it out to get "the piece of paper"?
One of the attributes that employers see when looking at a college graduate is the ability to stick it out (even when you are having to do things you would rather not be doing) and complete all the requirements in order to succeed. Shows an employer that you can be committed to something that you may not enjoy, but you will get the job done anyway.
So perhaps some of us are willing to sacrifice a few years in order to have an improved perception in the eyes of potential employers and other intangible perks of a college degree.
Leslie
One of the attributes that employers see when looking at a college graduate is the ability to stick it out (even when you are having to do things you would rather not be doing) and complete all the requirements in order to succeed. Shows an employer that you can be committed to something that you may not enjoy, but you will get the job done anyway.
So perhaps some of us are willing to sacrifice a few years in order to have an improved perception in the eyes of potential employers and other intangible perks of a college degree.
Leslie
screwloose
MIS
You should have graduated in five years. I graduated in 5 ½ years but that was because I went part-time for 2 semesters, 1 semester I only took 3 hrs, and I took classes 1 semester for a history minor that I later changed, and 1 semester took classes for a geography minor that I changed, along with classes taken for a major that I changed. (I was indecisive, to say the least ![[bigsmile]](/data/assets/smilies/bigsmile.gif "[bigsmile] [bigsmile]")
)
You should have stayed in school if you spent a lot of money and five years already and then you could have had that “piece of paper.”
The older I get the more I realize how valuable an education is to a person (and I have a Masters.)
Calling it just a “piece of paper” shows a lack of true understanding for the value of an education. Many people the world over wish for an education and many sacrifice so much to achieve it.
)You should have stayed in school if you spent a lot of money and five years already and then you could have had that “piece of paper.”
The older I get the more I realize how valuable an education is to a person (and I have a Masters.)
Calling it just a “piece of paper” shows a lack of true understanding for the value of an education. Many people the world over wish for an education and many sacrifice so much to achieve it.
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