If you are using Cisco VOIP for 500+ users, I need your feedback

[novatech]

My company is moving several offices into one large building (1000+). I "manage" the phone system for the largest building. I have an Avaya Definity G3 with the latest version of everything but it's traditional PBX not VOIP.

The corporate office wants us to use VOIP. I met with Avaya and Cisco and have quotes from both. My manager wants me to contact the companies that were given to us as referrals but I'd rather talk to someone that isn't on Cisco and Avaya's "customer" list. It's easy to give a few good references.

I need all the pros and cons from people who have already implemented Cisco VOIP. I know most of the issues with Avaya's system. It looks like my manager is leaning towards Cisco and that makes me nervous because they don't provide any type of traditional PBX. Cisco's pricing is WAY under Avaya and I want to know why.

Here are a few things I'd like to know...

Did Cisco's quote match the final bill? How long did it take to implement? Were there any hidden costs? What features did your PBX have that Cisco doesn't? Please give me any and all comments, good or bad. I'd love to get some information about your company as well, number of employees, location, are you using VOIP on LAN only or WAN as well, etc.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[novatech]

All,
We have just released a strict "request for proposal" so that the comparison is apples to apples.

We will be making a decision by the end of the month so I'll let you all know how it goes.

Diiguy - Your post was very interesting. If Microsoft comes out with an update, how long do you have to wait before Cisco releases their modified version of the update?

 

[iptuser]

I work for a major Law firm in the UK. We have carried out a RFP in the UK for a 3k user IPT system in the UK with future roll outs in 30 international offices. We sent the RFP to

Siemens
Nortel
Mitel
Cisco
Avaya

It was based on features such as mobility, future rollout implementation, features, security, call logging, Client billing requirements etc

If any one is interested in our conclusions let me know

wayne.jackson@allenovery.com

wayne

 

[Dunstan]

Talking religion in here lol. If they came up Cisco they will speak highly of Cisco. If they came up Avaya they will speak highly of Avaya. Just ensure that the system you choose has ALL the feature functionality you desire, and more importantly the Vendor you choose has the experience and willingness to address any post cut issues. Cisco does now and always has beaten Avaya on price points, then again so do most major PBX/IP PBX vendors. Price needs to be a factor but the front door price can expand quickly if you find you need "additional" equipment because you were sold a system that does not meet your actual needs.

 

[diiguy]

Re: "Diiguy - Your post was very interesting. If Microsoft comes out with an update, how long do you have to wait before Cisco releases their modified version of the update?"

The mantra for dealing with Call Manager is don't install anything without being sure that Cisco TAC has approved it. If Cisco has not posted it, don't install it. Sometimes Cisco wants a particular update installed soon after the Microsoft release, other times they seem to roll them up into a later Cisco-branded system install.

Keep your Call Managers behind a robust firewall. Use Cisco approved anti-virus software. Turn off all unnecessary services on Call Managers -- this is not the same set for the publisher as for the subscribers so it must be individualized. Lastly, be sure to keep end users away from the Call Managers. Believe it or not, I've seen end users running Microsoft Office on a Call Manager (not our Call Manager but a "sick" cluster of Call Managers which we were consulted to "fix" -- and we did. Typically, the end-user was ready to rip out the "new fangled" IP phones and replace it with a TDM PBX dinasour. They ended up happy with the Call Manager after things were cleaned up. Now we manage their Call Managers for them.

Also, TAC specifically has told us NOT to install any version of Netscape on a Call Manager. VNC seems to be OK per TAC as are Microsoft Terminal Services. But that's about it!

Also, we keep a staging cluster of Call Managers to test things with. But if you follow Cisco's recommendations to the letter -- even if they seem counterintuitive -- you'll minimize your problems with Call Manager. For example, one time we installed an updated driver for the Ethernet NIC on a MCS-7835 and we started getting frame errors when connected to a Catalyst 6509. These errors lead to random call control problems. Cisco TAC advised rolling back the driver to a much earlier version and the problems were fixed. They claimed that the new driver introduced bugs and new features that were not needed.

Good Luck!

Ivor Benjamin
CTO
Digital Ingenuity, Inc.

http://www.diicom.com/

 

[novatech]

What is Cisco's "approved" anti-virus software? What do you use?

 

[RTMCKEE]

I do know of a 500+ seat call center running CCM and IPCC. The last go round of viruses took out the entire voice system. Oddly enough the data network was okay.

Previously (from what I understand) cisco only approved one AV software for the CCM. They now approved the big two programs.

I personally dont think the virus issue can be taken too lightly. When Cisco first came to us they said "dont worry, you cant get a virus its on a diffent vlan and everything" That has since to be proven wrong. I'm not sure how quickly cisco TAC approves updates, but I could definately see where your servers will be open for attack even if only for a little while. The second issue I have with viruses, is although the servers may be protected the last virus would affect different pcs on the network, and basically Killed the through-put on the network, which will kill the voice communications.

I completely agree that CM is excellent for rapid deployment at small sites, but in a big high priority call center, a traditional pbx is the way to go.

The other thing to think about is what you are going to do with the calls WHEN the ip network goes down?

RTMCKEE

 

[diiguy]

Re: "The last go round of viruses took out the entire voice system."

Steps to help protect Cisco Call Manager networks from worms, germs and viruses...

1. Use Cisco approved anti-virual software (McAfee or Symantec).
2. Disable unused services on Call Manager (WWW, FTP, DNS, DHCP, etc.).
3. Do NOT use Call Manager as a web browsing client.
4. Keep the Call Managers in a workgroup if possible (do not join a domain unless you need to).
5. Block all traffic on Netbios ports (RPC, etc.) in and out of the Call Manager VLAN.
6. For mission critical installs (e.g. large call centers), consider keeping a hot standby Media Convergence Server and an offline mirrored hard drive from the publisher. Expensive, but this could restore a cluster within minutes.

Hope that this helps.

Ivor Benjamin
CTO
Digital Ingenuity, Inc.

http://www.diicom.com/

 

[jettatdi]

I've done many PBX switches, mostly Lucent Definity, and Legends. We've been on a Cisco system for three years. CM3.1, upgraded last to 3.2spH. Still a few minor issues.

I think you need to decide not what vendor product you want, but what services you need, how you plan to save money on a WaN installation, etc. We have 2 CM, 1 Unity and 1 ICD server. Over 1000 phones, 875 Unity mailboxes.

Except for some occasional problems, it runs like a gem. The key here is a good Installation for knowledgable and reliable vendors. That's the start.

Also, doing an upgrade from CM3.3 to 4.0 is not suggested, as of problems associated with the new 2000 database. It does not match up good. Best solution, fresh install of new CM app, and restore database info. We also run a VG-248 Analog gateway for credit card, pot phones, modem dial out/in, services which saves us greatly on having business lines. Fax Relay is utilized on the VG-248 for all faxing capabilites,and no problems. Saving a bundle. We use ISDN primes, with SRS at each remote locations. Yup, calls are a problem, but only been down once on remote sites, so you need a good provider for communications.

I Love Cisco. Yes it takes planning to make sure the IOS, and upgrades are done right, but if you wan to run data, voice and video in a multicast environment, it's way too cool. One wire from wall for both pc and phone. I would not go back for the all the money in the world. I have absolutely no Cisco CM, Unity, ICD training, nor Cisco coursework and am doing just fine.

Remember, look first at what you want to do, vendor availabilty, I mean good smart ones and then plan. Don't just buy Cisco or Avaya based on a price, or salesman. Base it on what you want to do now and in the future. There are great apps that run on our CM system, to enhance all of the features.

We will migrate to 4.x in August when the new ICD service is ready. Wouln'd have it another way.

 

[oddjob001]

I'd go for 3.3(3) then when it's out upgrade to 4.0(1)sr2 looks like some funky features are coming out and the new phones are uber cool.

 

[talbotpat]

SR2 was released on 5 May. Of particular note is support for CIPC (Cisco IP Communicator.)

Pat