I love it - I hate it! 1

[jdt141]

Hi,

I'm currently evaluating Livelink for a potential major implementation. I need to know general feel for this product, and what ya'll think of it. do you love it? do you hate it? would you rather have bought something else? would you give a lung and kidney for it? would you give your first born child? any advice from the "real" world (not packaged OTX stuff) would be very helpful. thanx!

 

[Diancecht]

From my experience, I would dig a big hole, throw LiveLink into it and make the world forget it ever existed.

 

[ggriffit]

I've found it to be a good product for some projects, what are you trying to do with it ? once we know we can provide some useful comments.

check out

http://www.greggriffiths.org/livelink/

for more information.

Diancecht - can you explain why you don't like Livelink, did you have a bad experience on a particular project ?

 

[Diancecht]

As I said, I'm talking about and only about my personal and not really wide experience with LiveLink. I'm not telling it's a bad product or useless. I imagine that there are a lot of people that find it reliable and usable. I'd rather prefer an FTP service.

Here we have some of the things I don't like about LiveLink:

- Slow Web interface, non intuitive, hard to understand and navigate.

- Lots of concepts, types, subtypes, hidden options, that are, in my opinion too much complicated. They could be reduced to be clearer without loosing funcionality.

- Access API ... what could I tell about our wonderful LAPI? Probably only bad words. Same API for C, VB and Java so it's unreadable in all languages, not documented, difficult to understand ...

All of this, in my humble opinion.

Dian

 

[jdt141]

Looking for workflow, doc mgmt, cross business group search, knowledge exploration/discovery (who does this? anyone know anything about this?) on an easily used (think lowest common denomonator user) web accessible workspace, that has a standards based integration capability (XML)prefer the industry standard Wf-XML for workflows.

 

[appnair]

Die hard livelink fan mail

a)Easy to configure,install.Does require a good Oracle dba who is willing to listen to OT's recommendations.Performance
greatly depend on backend database tuning.Your admin can be as low as anybody who understands web server's OS's etc
b)You are getting Document management system,version control,Workflow manager,search engine,Forms as part of standard software.Who else offers this.Rock solid access control list
Has taken a hint from the unix guys(ugo).Multiple categories and attributes.
c)Code is easy enough to undertstand if you have builder module although there really has'nt been any hand holding
by OT.Very sturdy code base.Tried and trusted by many users.
d)excellent support-Hand holding for novice users.They will send the query statements for novice users.
e)LAPI is built on top of OScript hence requires a little bit understanding.However the new paradigm could well be
use Oscript or java.
f)XML export,import.
g)Windows explorer type

The question on speed should be judged separately based on your business unit needs.I administer three livelink servers
close to approaching terrabyte proportions,averaging 200,000
hits per day.My ll servers are all windows 2000,we probably have not re-booted the box for a long time now.we use hardware load balancing and from time to time have to re-start livelink services.Good bench marks are available at opentext's site

Regarding work flow painting thes guys are the easiest.I went to a SAP workflow DEMO and they showed a workflow.The gimmicks is in the front end ,presentation layer with XML.We asked how long did it take to do the workflow.You will not beleive this 2 weeks.Mind you this was just a rudimentary workflow showing routing.I could probably get that workflow in less than 5 minutes.I do not know any other system unfortunately.



Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. - Will Rogers

appnair

 

[Diancecht]

Well, I imagine that if you're used to work with LiveLink and familiarized with its concepts, could become powerful, accurate, good and whatever you want, but the my first face-to-face ended in knockout for me.

I have exactly no idea of how to adminsitrate a LiveLink system (and I hope I will remain this way). What I'm trying to do is a kind of LiveLink access interface from another platform, so I have to access all functionalities with LAPI. LAPI is a total headache (I won't tell the exact words that are atm in my mind )

Furthermore, if you're a novice user, what you get is a help site with LiveLink interface. So you need to get used ti LiveLink to understand LiveLink. Not good. And when you enter there and look for LAPI references, what you get is a lot of people complaining about the same thing you think: you have no standard documentation.

So I won't change my mind, I don't like LiveLink

Cheers.

Dian.

 

[ggriffit]

Just like APPNAIR I've been involved with Livelink from its early days and have a good understanding of how it works and how users percieve it, if you roll it out slowly and carefully and don't just give everyone everything at the start - i.e. only allow those who need to create Folders rights to do so - as this simplifies the rollout.

Good training and the relatively new XML user skins make it easier to get familiar with as the XML / Xpression / Appearance modules can make it look and feel like any other app. your users use.

It is quite complex - especially the Admin side with all the logs and settings etc - but if you get help to get it set up properly you should be able to leave it for ages.

I can't argue about the Developer stuff, its easy once you get there, but getting there is a real pain unless you have good support and opportunties - although now that we can use Java rather than OScript to develop in may make it easier. Having said that as it is web based you can use ASP/Perl/PHP etc as I have done to enhance it.

Just to add on the Workflow side, I've compared the OT offering with Oracle's offering and had the same opinion as APPNAIR had of the SAP one, good painter - just like Livelink - but after that it was all PL/SQL code.

Livelink supports all the XML stuff you need for Workflow, Doc. Mgmt etc and does really well.

Alternatives if you want them include :

1.Documentum - if you think Livelink is hard to install/configure you ain't seen this !!

2. Sharepoint - MS offering, not really worth the effort see

http://www.brint.com/wwwboard/messages/129842.html

3. roll your own - not that difficult for a simple one, but can get VERY complex.

In summary, its as good as your Admin / rollout / training, if you do it well it works, otherwise it fails, just like any other implementation.

Probably the bset thing to do is to get a few of them in for demos and run some trials and see what suits best. Livelink have their European Trade Show in April this year (

http://www.opentext.com/linkup/)

which would give you a chance to meet some other customers / suppliers and other users - I'll be there ;-) If you are US based there are also user group meetings etc - check out their site.

I think that we'd all really appreciate to know what you select and why, so please keep in touch.

 

[jdt141]

all -

thank you for your honest insights into the program. greg - these are all things that i've gathered from multiple sources. we're down to convincing high level management at this point. we've ruled out documentum and SAP at this point, and sharepoint is still a possible option, but it doesn't give the same features as livelink. we're going for an enterprise soln (12k users) so building it ourself is out of the picture. if we can get everyone on board, its a go

here's a more direct question about the product - can, in a workflow, a project workspace be part of the workflow?

 

[ggriffit]

Can you provide some more information on your direct question ?

 

[jdt141]

well, i'm wondering what all goes into the workflow painter. i know that LL supports personal & project workspaces (in addition to the enterprise wspc), but i was wondering what "components" can go into a workflow - i know a milestone is one - i'm just wondering if you can link one of the "steps" in the workflow to a project workspace in some way?

 

[ggriffit]

There is a white paper at

http://www.greggriffiths.org/livelink

on workflow, the first few sections cover basic workflow functionality. Enhancements are certainly possible depending on requirements.

 

[appnair]

the workflow in livelink the actual design step consists
of an initiate,user(ties to user api),evaluate(ties to any kind of complex criteria you can think of),milestones(if you want some kind of date,time calcs),Process or robot step(which can be used to email,move completed things etc),subworkflow(if you wanted the main workflow map look decent and present a high level picture as you would genearlly want to).Optionals are XML interchange(if you wanted to send some stuff to an external system and process something out of it),Formtasks(if you wanted the front end not look dull and bleak like the llinterface,most of the competing companies excel in this,opentext did this as an after thought).Also workflow is the most customized component of OT's offering.Also a workflow offers these standard packages called comments,attachments.It should be fairly easy to add the project object type to the add item in the attachments tab or since ll offers you aliases you can attach your project as an alias.

My experience with livelink workflows has been fairly easy to mess with an I have been with two employers who was really using it effectively.

I hope that this helps you and I love opentext support.They are very serious about their product and the excellent knowledge base and FAQ's takes the tedium out of your job.If you design your taxonomy well and good I would say it is a good choice,Likewise right now I'm supporting close to 15 K users world wide and I still can take vacation and sleep nights.

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. - Will Rogers

appnair

 

[LenOlson]

I've been working with Livelink for 5 years now and I think it's a terrific product. It does require at least a minimal effort at learning how to navigate & add content, but once you learn the basics it is very easy to get a lot of value out of it. I don't know of any other product that offers as much functionality out of the box. Yet it offers a lot of possibilities for customization as well. The simplest form of customization is just to add an html page --easy enough for a novice to do. Workflow design is easy to learn: its probably harder to get clients to agree on their process definition than to create a functioning workflow in Livelink. I perform some of the routine admin functions on our test server, and I have NO formal IT background at all. As for performance, it's pretty good if you have some decent hardware behind it.

As for the warts --reporting requires a knowledge of SQL and the LL database. You CAN get decent reports out of the system, but it takes somebody who can write a decent SQL query. Also, some of the modules I think should be standard are optional, meaning you have to pay extra for them. This can drive your cost up substantially. For example, if you want to integrate with e-mail or MS Office you'll pay serious $$$ for it.

Bottom line is that if you need a content management / workflow management / project management / all-in-one collaborative environment for the entire enterprise is that you'll have a hard time finding a better product. Documentum, Hummingbird and IBM/Lotus have good products too, but I suspect you would need more developer effort to implement them.

 

[framey]

I agree with it being hard to code. What your looking for is an out the box application that you configure rather than customize. The only one I have came across is Documentum Enterprise Engineer.

 

[ggriffit]

That entirely depends on what you want to do with Livelink, if you are looking to purely setup and use the system then I have found it much easier than Documentum for this.

From a developer point of view the Builder and OScript are slightly complex and difficult to learn / get developers. However you are now able to use Java (

https://knowledge.opentext.com/know...c=ll&objId=3089900&objAction=browse&sort=name

among others) to code you Livelink modules as well. There are also a huge amount of modules available both from Livelink and from other 3rd Parties so you may not even need to do any programming.

If you still find you need to develop, then you could also look at LAPI (

http://www.greggriffiths.org/livelink/development/lapi/)

which allows you to create your own apps in say Java, .Net, VB etc and then use Livelink's API to connect to Livelink and perform activities.

 

[klanon]

I agree, the Livelink Webinterface deffinately requires user training to understand the full functionallity, like any system. If people are only using it as a document storage system it is easy to use, if you want to use more functionallity train them. DIANCECHT- Why don't you make the effort to learn as much as you can about it instead of complaining about how aweful it is, and once you know the system you can pass that knowledge on to the users in the easiest way possible. I of all people know that users need to be hand fed. You know how to use a browser right? only because you use it a lot of the time. If you used Livelink like that you would know how to use it to its full potential.

I have been working with Livelink for 5 years now, and it is a great system to use, and has many benefits to any company. Administering it is easy once you know how. It can also be customised to your requirements.

I still think that the Livelink Explorer module is excellent, and would recommend that users use that instead of the web interface. The web is better as a backup. Give it a try. It adds the exact look and feel that windows explorer does under My Computer.

 

[jdt141]

absolutely amazing.

our project died in february, but now its been revived (Along with this thread) at almost the exact time.

if ya'll keep posting we might actually get a solution implemented.

while we're at it... anyone know anything about xerox docushare and how it competes w/LL??

 

[Diancecht]

Oh my god, I've already forgotten about this thread.

klanon: as I stated in my post, I'm not using Livelink itself. I was asked to give an interface to interact with a Livelink system, in order to give a more clear way for users to take advantage of it.

As I also said, maybe Livelink is a poweful tool, I don't know. I was complaining about the fact that the documentation is not clear, the effort needed to learn it is too huge.

I DID the effort and I could understand it enough to do what I was asked to do. But I have some experiencies with a lot of another products and I have to say that Livelink is by far one of the most complicated.

I imagine that if you spend five years working with a product, you can take advantage of it in a gorgeous way. But if it was my choice, I'd choose an esaier way.

Don't get offended, it's just my humble opinion. Anyway, I finished my project, it's delivered and working, and I hope I will never have to deal with it again

Cheers.

Dian