I await replies with baited breath... 5

[jebenson]

This editorial hits on some of my biggest pet peeves:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-1127edit2nov27,0,711679.story

I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day!

 

[BobRodes]

<So, we're going to abandon historical meanings and throw etymology to the wind just so that people will have an easier time with a language which is simply taught poorly in schools?

Well, yes, in a word. It's really a matter of degree, isn't it? I doubt very much that anyone will argue that the term "butterfly" should be expunged in favor of the more historically (and etymologically) correct "flutterby" as can be seen in Chaucer.

<presentation details, including [...] penmanship
Eh????

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I doubt very much that anyone will argue that the term "butterfly" should be expunged in favor of the more historically (and etymologically) correct "flutterby" as can be seen in Chaucer.

Although very reasonable, I'm not sure that's very accurate. Chaucer lived in the late 1300's, and yet we have Old English citations of "buttorfleoge" pre-dating Chaucer by some 400 years.


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[BobRodes]

Well, that's interesting. Either my high school version of "The Canterbury Tales" was using the term rather irresponsibly, or my memory doesn't serve me correctly on the matter. Anyway, I looked it up, and all I can find is a single post in a blog that says "if you read Chaucer in the original ME, you'll see the term flutterby there." Sounds authoratitive, but it also sounds like the person hasn't really read the original ME, especially since there are lots of quotes in ME of Chaucer using the term "boterflye".

It would seem that there's not any real evidence that Chaucer uses the term flutterby. So, I stand corrected, and thanks to CC for setting me straight.

However, my original point still stands, even if I did give a bad example.

Bob

 

[Welshbird]

Santa: I couldn't agree more. But being a Libdem I can always see the other point of view; even when I cannot agree with it!

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[SQLSister]

Of course part of the problem is that many school districts are having so much trouble attracting teachers that they are hiring those who can't even get a teaching license. Very few of these teachers are capable of correcting the writing of students - particularly if they are not teaching English. We had excellent teachers in the small WV town I grew up in; people with those same qualifications now go 20-50 miles away in VA or MD where they can earn much more if they go into teaching at all.

I also believe standardized tesing is part of the problem. If you are teaching for the kids to pass a multiple choice test, you won't give as many writing or analytical assignments because they won't help the students pass the test. I firmly believe "No Child Left Behind" is leaving most children behind.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[philhege]

Language is a living, breathing thing. Consider this verse:

Westron wynde, when wilt thou blow,
The small raine down can raine.
Cryst, if my love were in my armes
And I in my bedde again!

My Oxford Anthology attributes the verse to Anonymous, somewhere in the 13th century or so.

So, in the space of a few centuries, we've altered some spelling (and, according to scholars, more than some pronunciation). But the visceral meaning of the verse, and the almost tangible longing of the author, remains today.

Which is not to say that a few centuries from now, this verse and this post will be as unintelligible to the people of that time as Old English is to the vast majority of us today. Language evolves as surely as does life.

However, there's nothing wrong with defending the current convention and the formality of standard English. Hell, I was an English major, and I'm aghast at much of the communication I see from my peers. There's a place for idiomatic patter; neither the business world nor the arena of ideas is that place. (Sign me up for the Fogie Brigade!)

Agreed, Judy, that No Child Left Behind programs will usher in the death of critical thinking. This country doesn't need rote automatons. We need analytical, critical thinkers with the tools to solve thorny and important issues. The purpose of education, especially childhood education, should be to exercise the mind and teach the student how to think, not what to think, or what to memorize.

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder I can think at all."
Paul Simon, Kodachrome

 

[CajunCenturion]

You ask a good question Trevoke, and from my perspective, the answer is no, we should not abandon historical meanings. I agree with others that No Child Left Behind programs and standardized testing us down to a least common denominator, essentially setting mediocrity as the standard. It's sad that far too many are willing to accept that, but after all, it is the easier road to take. Learning on the other hand, true learning takes time and effort. I think SQLSister and philhege are right on point with their comments.


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[BobRodes]

<should be to exercise the mind and teach the student how to think, not what to think, or what to memorize.

This reminds me of the time that I had to recite the Pledge of Allegiance for a Cub Scout award, and my father wouldn't sign off on it until I could tell him what "indivisible" meant. Told me I had to look it up in the dictionary myself, too.

On the other hand, there needs to be a balance. I remember attempting to "figure out" how to get the right answer to multiplication problems, as I had done with addition by counting on fingers and the like. (Unfortunately, I still think of 8 + 5 as "8...9-10-11-12-13".) When I went to my mother and said I couldn't do it, she had me sit down and memorize my mulitiplication tables.

So, while I very much agree with philhege in spirit, I still feel that rote learning has its place in education. I guess in matters of simple fact that's the way to go.

 

[SantaMufasa]

When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder I can think at all.

I have always advocated an elementary-school class, perhaps entitled, "Applied Problem Solving". The class assigns to students a variety of real-world problems and scenarios that exercise multi-discipline problem-solving skills from all the students' other classes combined: English, Math, Social Studies, Art, Science, Geography, History, et cetera. Students could earn extra credit by solving issues that require skills beyond the core curricula, such as a foreign-language application, sports knowledge/skill, or other elective curricula.


When kids say, "Why do I need to learn Math...I'm going to be a <fill in professional sport here> player," they need to see the benefit of applied-problem-solving skills for all curricula.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[BobRodes]

Great idea!

 

[pinkgecko]

Right now, even story problems are the most feared problem in a typical math class. I loved them because they actually gave you a semi-real situation where you could use what you had learned. Most other students hated them because they required the student to review known formulas, determine which could be used to solve the problem, and work out a solution, instead of just plugging in numbers to an equation and spitting out the answer.

[blue]When birds fly in the correct formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness.[/blue]

 

[lisaharris]

My son's school did the same thing as described above. At one back to school night, the teacher explained how they do not correct spelling errors. They did have spelling class and were tasked with learning how to spell each list of 30 or so words, but if a mistake was made in the spelling of a word in anything the children wrote, it was not counted against them. They were encouraged to spell phonetically if they did not know how to spell a word. The teacher explained that this was acceptable, because eventually they would learn the proper spelling.

Now I have a highly intelligent, 12-year-old straight-A student that can't spell. He can learn how to spell words, but the lower grades never enforced the rules of spelling that previous generations grew up with. I fear what's going to happen to his grades in high school and college if I can't un-do the bad habits the schools have taught.

 

[flapeyre]

I remember having to take a 20-word spelling quiz every week in third grade (1963-64).

Spelling is an especially important skill for English, as there are so many homonymns. In most Romance languages (Spanish, for example), you hear the word and you pretty much know how it's spelled, because all the letters (or dipthongs) have the same pronunciation (with a few exceptions).

Solum potestis prohibere ignes silvarum.

 

[SantaMufasa]

In most Romance languages (Spanish, for example), you hear the word and you pretty much know how it's spelled...

Kinda like when an Hispanic friend greets me:

Hispanic friend: ¿Cómo es usted? (How are you?)

Mufasa: Soy cansado, soy cazado, y soy casado. (I'm tired, hunted, and married.)

To the casual listener, these are Spanish (near) homonyms/homophones (which generally gets a big grin out of the Hispanic friend).

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[flapeyre]

Adding to that (you know how much I love Latin ):

Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.

Spoiler

A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.

Solum potestis prohibere ignes silvarum.

 

[sleipnir214]

Santa:
Unless you're speaking an engineered language like Lojban, casual listeners are going to be tripped up. But if your Spanish-speaking friend correctly heard the sentence, would he be able, using a regular set of rules, correctly spell the words?

All:
To my experience, Romance languages vary wildly as to how close to phonetic they are. Italian, depending on accents, can be fairly close, but French and Portuguese are often not.

If you're looking for languages that map easily between spelling and sounds, try German or Russian.




Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!

 

[jsteph]

I will just chime in and say I agree with the 'evolution' theory: Language isn't some fixed "discovery" that should be preserved in whatever the earliest form known--it is something we as humans created to facilitate communication, so if we change words to ease this--for example shoppe to shop--I'm all for it.

However, the jist (or is it gist?!) of the article seemed to center on when spelling is changed because of a misunderstanding. I'll admit to never giving much thought to where the term 'bated breath' came from, and I have probably spelled it 'baited breath' which is apparently incorrect. It makes sense now reading the historical source, and this is a case in which I think Oxford should *not* have accomodated, and myself and others who are getting it wrong should change.

But if Oxford decided to allow naybor instead of neighbor (and ditto for many other words that have me and many others (admit it) reciting the 'i before e...' thing), I wouldn't complain.

If there's no conflict with an existing word--why make a language difficult just to "be difficult" or be "historically accurate"? I'm sure the first people who used the spelling "shop" instead of shoppe got called 'lazy' and were told they were the beginning of the end of civilization, but it stuck and most people now don't seem to have a problem with it. Just an opinion...
--Jim

 

[pinkgecko]

I would have to say "baited breath" is modified meaning though. It changes it from "holding your breath" to "smelling like fish bait." And if someone's breath is going to stink like worms, they'd better hold it.

[blue]When birds fly in the correct formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness.[/blue]

 

[SantaMufasa]

...if your Spanish-speaking friend correctly heard the sentence, would he be able, using a regular set of rules, correctly spell the words?

Actually, "casado" ("married") and "cazado" ("hunted") are true Spanish homophones...sound identical, but spelled differently.


So, in direct response to your question, there is a high likelihood that multiple listeners would spell the words differently.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[PaulTEG]

it worries me lots ... words used to mean what we thought they meant ... now, ... will it ever stop ...
penalised for use of over ellipses ... ... but ponder we must [elli...]

Paul
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Spend an hour a week on CPAN, helps cure all known programming ailments ;-)