I await replies with baited breath... 5

[jebenson]

This editorial hits on some of my biggest pet peeves:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-1127edit2nov27,0,711679.story

I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day!

 

[flapeyre]

Well, there is a use for "baited breath" (the cat who eats cheese and sits in front of a mouse hole).

Personally, I never make miss steaks.

Solum potestis prohibere ignes silvarum.

 

[rjoubert]

...the impulse behind it was sensible.

What is so sensible about allowing our society to feel comfortable in their ignorance? Just because some people can't spell correctly, we'll just change the way the words are spelled to accommodate them? I'll admit, I've used "thru" a few times (in a purely shorthanded manner), but if I ever saw someone use "geografy" I think I'd have a mental meltdown.

What's next, changing the layout of the World map just because some people don't know where France is?

 

[dgillz]

Where r u peeps? What wrong w u? U r a bunch of clothes-minded peeps.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.gainfocus.biz

"What version of URGENT!!! are you using?

 

[LNBruno]

The dumming dwn uv are sosiatee continus on it's merre way.

< M!ke >
[small]Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about.[/small]

 

[Welshbird]

When I grow up I want to be a lolcat.

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[sleipnir214]

I am of many minds on this.

While I agree that usages like "baited breath" in the modern age are at best an examples of complete lack of paying attention, I must also accept that languages evolve. After all, the last novel I read did not use in its introduction spelling similar to Chaucer's:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

(And don't even get me started on the pronunciation of late Middle English -- you need to imitate the Swedish Chef from the Muppet Show to get the sound right.)

We must all keep in mind that with the exception of their use in ajudicating Scrabble games, dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. The OED contains entries for words that have not been in use in English in 300 years, but keep in them there just in case a scholar might need to know the meaning of those words after coming across one of them in some late Medieval document. Likewise, some 24th-century scholar might look at our documents and ask, "I know what 'bated breath' means. But what about 'baited breath'?"




Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!

 

[sleipnir214]

Oops.

"ajudicating Scrabble games" should read "adjudicating Scrabble games"




Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!

 

[Trevoke]

So, we're going to abandon historical meanings and throw etymology to the wind just so that people will have an easier time with a language which is simply taught poorly in schools?

As a foreigner, I can tell you that I learned my mother tongue properly, with grammatical values and stuff (haha).
When I moved to the US, for 11th grade, I had vocabulary quizzes in my english class. Vocabulary quizzes. If people were taught what a noun and an adverb were in school, instead of when they choose to become english majors at the age of 18+, maybe things would go a little better..

Then again, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Tao Te Ching Discussions : Chapter 9 (includes links to previous chapters)
What is the nature of conflict?

 

[sleipnir214]

Trevoke:

So, we're going to abandon historical meanings and throw etymology to the wind just so that people will have an easier time with a language which is simply taught poorly in schools?

I don't know to whom your question was directed, but I'll have a go at it.

No, we teach standard spelling and standard grammar and standard usage in schools.

But we keep in mind that we don't always agree on what standard spelling or pronunciation should be [see: color vs. colour, aluminum vs. aluminium] that English has evolved and will evolve regardless of what we have to say about it [see: Chaucer's Middle English vs. Modern English and English's vestigal genetive case we see only in scattered apostrophes in possesion and certain constructs dealing with time] and that the snapshot state of any living language is a consensus of its speakers.


I, too, benefitted from an early education that was heavy in English theory. I can't tell you how many sentences I had to diagram in the second, third, seventh and eighth grades. But I also understand I ain't the Grammar Police.




Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!

 

[xwb]

Reminds me of these: one part of it was from the Senior Editor of the Bristol Classical Press. Don't know where the other part came from.

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea

Eye strike a quay and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong or write
It shows me strait a weigh

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It shows bee for two long,
And I can put the error rite;
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this pome threw it
I am shore your pleased to no,
Its letter perfect all the weigh;
My chequer told me sew.

Sauce unknown

 

[SQLSister]

I beleive the problem is not that the subjects aren't taught anymore but that the students are not actaully penalized for not using correct grammar, spelling etc in their writing. At some point it was decided (not by me!) that this might hurt their fragile egos and that we shouldn't grade them on such things.
When I was in school we were indeed graded on grammar and spelling and correct word usage in everything we wrote including subjects besides English.

I hear people claim this change is because of liberal education policies, but personally it seems to me to be more of a reaction to parents who no longer find it acceptable if their child is punished in any way shape or form including receiving bad grades for poor work. (These parents do not seem to be only Liberals but also include in my experience many parents who call themselves Conservatives, just as long as it isn't their kid who is marked down!) I know many teachers who hate these policies but they are stuck with them because of the adminstration both wanting to please parents and being rewarded when their schools have high grade point averages.

The sad thing is I now work with some people who grew up under this "lack of accountabilty for your actions" educational system and they are nearly impossible to get to do their work properly or follow even simplified instructions. Plus they want to be rewarded for even the tiniest things and think it is unfair to actually expect them to work. Boy do I feel like an old fogie writing this.
I find it telling that almost all of the programmers we have had to let go for failure to perform have been in their twenties.


"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[SantaMufasa]

I find it telling that almost all of the programmers we have had to let go for failure to perform have been in their twenties.

If they don't learn real success skills in school, then they'll learn them from the "cold, cruel world" (and that world isn't too worried about preserving fragile egos).


The fact that I diagrammed sentences and learned Latin and Greek roots from third grade onward provided the foundation for complete confidence in writing and communicating clearly and precisely throughout my life. IMHO, curricula that do not require such skills handicap students far more than any birth defects.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[MCuthill]

~Steps into conversation, quickly paddling to keep above water in an over-the-head topic~

Hi All,

Not only a peeve of those not among the more youthful of sosciety. I am in my early twenties, and although I will never profess to have the best handle on my native (English) language, I find those who chose to not even try one of the worst peeves ever.

I'll accept "web-speak" in casual chatting, online forums, and text-messaging... to a degree. But it has unfortunately become so that these textual shortcuts are far too commonplace in everyday conversation.

This is right up there with young people's inability to count back change without a properly functioning register or to do complex (~coughs~ or simple) Mathematics without electronic aid...

As I watch the downward trend, I am thankful that I was brought up to utilize my head... and at this rate, an executive career may not be so hard to obtain and hold.

Hold I followed this correctly, either way my pocket is now two pennies lighter.


Mike
______________________________________________________________
"It Seems All My Problems Exist Between Keyboard and Chair"

 

[LizSara]

Well said Mike. I'm also in my twenties and i find it astounding that so many people aren't able to understand the point of correct grammar and spelling.

i'm constantly told by my friends in management that you can't hire someone from a CV any more because if you used correct English as a starting point no-one would get a job.

As many other people do, they seem to blame 'people in their 20's' for not knowing the fundementals of the language, but how can that be the case when so many of us do?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. ~ Nietzsche"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[traingamer]

This is sew knot write.

Greg
"Personally, I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught." - Winston Churchill

 

[pinkgecko]

I'm also a twenty-something (for a few more very short months, anyway), and I had various professors that would dock you a point for every instance of incorrect spelling or grammar. So these things are still emphasized, just not across the board. I had another professor that would not accept any papers where the writer used the junk-word "that" - and if it took you more than two tries to write according to his guidelines, he wouldn't accept it at all. We usually read over 500 pages and submitted about twenty pages of writing per week in that class, so it was a nightmare at times, but I can honestly say I came out the better for it. In fact, he was my favorite professor. I should also note the only professors I had who emphasized correct spelling and grammar were in the 20-40 year old range, so if you want to point fingers, you might be pointing at the wrong generation

That being said, I agree that spelling and grammar are no longer emphasized in elementary and secondary education, but neither is correct history, advanced mathematics, or logical thinking. The core learning is being pushed aside in favor of sports, arts, and computers. Only about 1/4 of my time in elementary/secondary education (if that) was spent on the three Rs. I hated school until I got to college and realized how to learn, think, and analyze instead of just how to memorize information and spit it back out. Pretty sad it took me that long, but I think many people of my generation are in that situation where their early education was insufficient and they either did not pursue higher education or encountered similarly bad teachers there as well.


[blue]When birds fly in the correct formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness.[/blue]

 

[Welshbird]

I think that part of the issue at the moment is that now students are not marked down for bad use of English in, say, as history paper, as it is believed they should be scored for their knowledge of history, not English.

In some ways I can see the point, but I'm not sure I agree!

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[SQLSister]

Ahd I want to be clear I think it is the parents and the schools at fault not the 20-somethings and younger who got stuck in this bad educational system. And I agree with Dave, failing to prepare young people for living in the real world as functioning independent adults handicaps them forever and, in my personal opinion, is abuse every bit as much as physically beating them up.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared

 

[SantaMufasa]

...it is believed they should be scored for their knowledge of history, not English.

I'm sure, Fee, that that is the case. But teachers should grade in the same way that computers handle errors in our programs:[ul][li]Syntax errors[/li][li]Logic errors[/li][/ul]When students present their work, they should know that "spelling counts; grammar counts; punctuation counts, and penmanship counts", along with how well they know the subject. It is a total package!



It's similar to walking into a fine restaurant where the tariff is > $100 (£50) per plate. Although you are there primarily for the taste of the food, if the servers dressed in T-shirts and Levis, wiping their noses on their forearms, and they serve your food on flimsy paper plates with plastic utensils and paper cups, provide paper towels as napkins (serviettes), and they pour the Chateau Lafite Rothschild out of a plastic pitcher (despite none of these presentaiton faux pas affecting the actual taste of the food), then I'd venure that you are not going to pay full price. Presentation is an important part of the total quality of a product.

Therefore, if students expect "full pay" (i.e., a top grade), then they must pay very close attention to presentation details, including spelling, grammar, punctuation, and penmanship, along with the logical quality of their work.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]