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how to build wesite with photoshop 1
- Thread starter sma101
- Start date
WizyWyg
Dont confuse DW with FrontPage which puts in bloated HTML. DW puts in straight coding. I use DW on a daily basis and none of the coding is bloated.
Have you ever looked at the JS code that dreamweaver creates? Especially rollovers.
I'm not here to argue so don't try to flame me, I'm just trying to state a point which in my opinion is true in a lot of cases. (Not all)
If you can code by hand, you can work anywhere. You can use any computer and as long as there is a text editor, you can work to your full potential. However, if you only use DW or another WYSIWYG editor and can't code by hand then you are restricted to only being able to work when you have a copy of DW in your possesion.
I see loads of very basic questions in these forums from people who have been using DW or FP to create a site and then when something goes wrong or they hit something that DW can't do, they are totally stuck.
When you use DW, you are learning how to use the program whereas when I am hand coding I learn the actual code.
I own my own business and would never employ anyone who couldn't hand code to a very good standard, no matter how great a site they could create in DW.
You are only as good as the tools you have available to you.![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
Dont confuse DW with FrontPage which puts in bloated HTML. DW puts in straight coding. I use DW on a daily basis and none of the coding is bloated.
Have you ever looked at the JS code that dreamweaver creates? Especially rollovers.
I'm not here to argue so don't try to flame me, I'm just trying to state a point which in my opinion is true in a lot of cases. (Not all)
If you can code by hand, you can work anywhere. You can use any computer and as long as there is a text editor, you can work to your full potential. However, if you only use DW or another WYSIWYG editor and can't code by hand then you are restricted to only being able to work when you have a copy of DW in your possesion.
I see loads of very basic questions in these forums from people who have been using DW or FP to create a site and then when something goes wrong or they hit something that DW can't do, they are totally stuck.
When you use DW, you are learning how to use the program whereas when I am hand coding I learn the actual code.
I own my own business and would never employ anyone who couldn't hand code to a very good standard, no matter how great a site they could create in DW.
You are only as good as the tools you have available to you.
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
snowboardr
Programmer
Well I don't see where you would not have a program you own available to you. You have a cd which can go anywhere with you with. And in all honestly if you work on a site that is bigger then your basic 10 pager then coding it by hand is going to be slightly time consuming.
As far as "learning the code if you write all the time in it" I learn code all the time even though I use DW MX because use can use split view so I spend as much time as i do in design view as code view.
But I guess the bottom line is if you have time to do it by hand go for it, but the internet isn't really standing still so you have to keep up in this industry and its really not the way to go by coding by hand in my opinion.
- Jason
As far as "learning the code if you write all the time in it" I learn code all the time even though I use DW MX because use can use split view so I spend as much time as i do in design view as code view.
But I guess the bottom line is if you have time to do it by hand go for it, but the internet isn't really standing still so you have to keep up in this industry and its really not the way to go by coding by hand in my opinion.
- Jason
Photoshop for creating your prototype > export only the images you need, not the whole layout (and forget about the html code that it produces). Homesite or notepad etc for coding your basic templates, dreamweaver for content management. mmmmmmmm.
Wullie
Have you ever looked at the JS code that dreamweaver creates? Especially rollovers.
Yes, and actually, Dreamweaver MX and 2004 have considerably done better to "unbloat" their coding. I still code by hand however.
I'm not here to argue so don't try to flame me, I'm just trying to state a point which in my opinion is true in a lot of cases. (Not all)
the "Scripting" is just a feature, and I dont use it much. But with MX i can work directly with my Database when doing my sites, and that helps a great deal since I dont have to "publish" the site to see if it works or not. I can see it "live" while creating the site. There are other uses of dreaweaver that I do appreciate, like "on the fly" rendering of what your site will look like. I work in the code and design view. I code in the coding view, and see what it does in design view. Works wonders on efficiency.
If you can code by hand, you can work anywhere. You can use any computer and as long as there is a text editor, you can work to your full potential. However, if you only use DW or another WYSIWYG editor and can't code by hand then you are restricted to only being able to work when you have a copy of DW in your possesion.
Which is why this whole thread started up.
If YOU can't do both, then you are not going to impress or get anywhere. If you can design, and make a nice layout, you can be good with the look of the site, but without knowing the basics, you are not going to be beneficial to anyone. PHOTOSHOP is not a web page tool. Its a design tool.
Dreamweaver/PhpCoder/SimpleText/ etc are tools that can be used to create websites, but it sure is in NO way can make fancy graphics.
I see loads of very basic questions in these forums from people who have been using DW or FP to create a site and then when something goes wrong or they hit something that DW can't do, they are totally stuck.
Then that's a problem they should be ready to figure out on their own. I dont solely use DW just to create. I had to learn how to code. I dont 100% rely on a program to do it for me. To do so is beyond stupidity. Do you 100% on your car to start every morning? Do 100% rely on the weather man telling you that it will be a sunny day when you look out your window and see Grey clouds?
When you use DW, you are learning how to use the program whereas when I am hand coding I learn the actual code.
So you are assuming that those who are using Wysiwyg editors ARE NOT learning to code? That's a ludicrous statement.
So are you saying that if i learn Manual shifting on a car, I can't drive an automatic?
Or if I ride a motorcycle, I have no way of riding a bicycle?
Or if I use Photoshop, I can't use Paintshop pro?
Dude, classes in College are TEACHING on wysiwyg editors; I know since I've been through them, even though I've been using HTML since 2.0 ; the classes DO TEACH HTML, CSS and XHTML.
I own my own business and would never employ anyone who couldn't hand code to a very good standard, no matter how great a site they could create in DW.
And I dont care how you run your business. Yur business is not the same as MY business or my employers, or the mom and pop shop that wants a website for their grocery store.
If the job can be done by the less amt of people involved in an efficient matter, that is cost effective, that's all that matters to a client.
I dont judge people on WHAT THEY use to do the job. I judge what they can accomplish and if they can do the JOB at all.
You are only as good as the tools you have available to you.
And if WYSIWYG Editors can make the job even faster and make you a better person, then so be it. To make the assumption that a wysiwyg editor user cannot code is beyond stupidity.
And that is offensive to me.
Have you ever looked at the JS code that dreamweaver creates? Especially rollovers.
Yes, and actually, Dreamweaver MX and 2004 have considerably done better to "unbloat" their coding. I still code by hand however.
I'm not here to argue so don't try to flame me, I'm just trying to state a point which in my opinion is true in a lot of cases. (Not all)
the "Scripting" is just a feature, and I dont use it much. But with MX i can work directly with my Database when doing my sites, and that helps a great deal since I dont have to "publish" the site to see if it works or not. I can see it "live" while creating the site. There are other uses of dreaweaver that I do appreciate, like "on the fly" rendering of what your site will look like. I work in the code and design view. I code in the coding view, and see what it does in design view. Works wonders on efficiency.
If you can code by hand, you can work anywhere. You can use any computer and as long as there is a text editor, you can work to your full potential. However, if you only use DW or another WYSIWYG editor and can't code by hand then you are restricted to only being able to work when you have a copy of DW in your possesion.
Which is why this whole thread started up.
If YOU can't do both, then you are not going to impress or get anywhere. If you can design, and make a nice layout, you can be good with the look of the site, but without knowing the basics, you are not going to be beneficial to anyone. PHOTOSHOP is not a web page tool. Its a design tool.
Dreamweaver/PhpCoder/SimpleText/ etc are tools that can be used to create websites, but it sure is in NO way can make fancy graphics.
I see loads of very basic questions in these forums from people who have been using DW or FP to create a site and then when something goes wrong or they hit something that DW can't do, they are totally stuck.
Then that's a problem they should be ready to figure out on their own. I dont solely use DW just to create. I had to learn how to code. I dont 100% rely on a program to do it for me. To do so is beyond stupidity. Do you 100% on your car to start every morning? Do 100% rely on the weather man telling you that it will be a sunny day when you look out your window and see Grey clouds?
When you use DW, you are learning how to use the program whereas when I am hand coding I learn the actual code.
So you are assuming that those who are using Wysiwyg editors ARE NOT learning to code? That's a ludicrous statement.
So are you saying that if i learn Manual shifting on a car, I can't drive an automatic?
Or if I ride a motorcycle, I have no way of riding a bicycle?
Or if I use Photoshop, I can't use Paintshop pro?
Dude, classes in College are TEACHING on wysiwyg editors; I know since I've been through them, even though I've been using HTML since 2.0 ; the classes DO TEACH HTML, CSS and XHTML.
I own my own business and would never employ anyone who couldn't hand code to a very good standard, no matter how great a site they could create in DW.
And I dont care how you run your business. Yur business is not the same as MY business or my employers, or the mom and pop shop that wants a website for their grocery store.
If the job can be done by the less amt of people involved in an efficient matter, that is cost effective, that's all that matters to a client.
I dont judge people on WHAT THEY use to do the job. I judge what they can accomplish and if they can do the JOB at all.
You are only as good as the tools you have available to you.
And if WYSIWYG Editors can make the job even faster and make you a better person, then so be it. To make the assumption that a wysiwyg editor user cannot code is beyond stupidity.
And that is offensive to me.
WizyWyg,
I think the layout of my post confused you, I did not aim the whole post at you, looking at it again I can see why you thought that but only the first few paragraphs were directed to you.
I wasn't saying that you personally don't know how to code, I assumed from your advice in your first post that you can.
One part that I was commenting on was the following statement:
and "if you can't code html, don't be a webd esigner" is purely and IGNORANT and flame ridden comment. Puhlease.
In a time when companies want fast and efficient, they rather have you work with a WYSIWYG editor and clean up the code then hand-input code over and over again, especially if its the same coding over and over again.
To clean up the code requires a knowledge of the language, so how can you say that his comment is ignorant? It's like saying, if you can't use a hammer, don't be a joiner. Pretty self-explanitory stuff.
I keep seeing all over the place that Dreamweaver creates things faster than hand coding yet I have still to see any proof of this.
I know the languages and can code IMO pretty quickly. Because I know the languages then I know what to type and when. Using an editor still requires you to know how to do some things and can easily take longer to do certain tasks than it would for me to hand code.
snowboardr
Well I don't see where you would not have a program you own available to you. You have a cd which can go anywhere with you with. And in all honestly if you work on a site that is bigger then your basic 10 pager then coding it by hand is going to be slightly time consuming.
What makes DW any faster at creating a template site than coding by hand? I can create include files and type 1 line of code into each file to include it.
Also, I think the EULA would disagree with you, not to mention that due to the amount of virus about, many companies are unlikely to allow you to install programs onto their network.
Hope this helps
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
I think the layout of my post confused you, I did not aim the whole post at you, looking at it again I can see why you thought that but only the first few paragraphs were directed to you.
I wasn't saying that you personally don't know how to code, I assumed from your advice in your first post that you can.
One part that I was commenting on was the following statement:
and "if you can't code html, don't be a webd esigner" is purely and IGNORANT and flame ridden comment. Puhlease.
In a time when companies want fast and efficient, they rather have you work with a WYSIWYG editor and clean up the code then hand-input code over and over again, especially if its the same coding over and over again.
To clean up the code requires a knowledge of the language, so how can you say that his comment is ignorant? It's like saying, if you can't use a hammer, don't be a joiner. Pretty self-explanitory stuff.
I keep seeing all over the place that Dreamweaver creates things faster than hand coding yet I have still to see any proof of this.
I know the languages and can code IMO pretty quickly. Because I know the languages then I know what to type and when. Using an editor still requires you to know how to do some things and can easily take longer to do certain tasks than it would for me to hand code.
snowboardr
Well I don't see where you would not have a program you own available to you. You have a cd which can go anywhere with you with. And in all honestly if you work on a site that is bigger then your basic 10 pager then coding it by hand is going to be slightly time consuming.
What makes DW any faster at creating a template site than coding by hand? I can create include files and type 1 line of code into each file to include it.
Also, I think the EULA would disagree with you, not to mention that due to the amount of virus about, many companies are unlikely to allow you to install programs onto their network.
Hope this helps
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
Wullie
I think the layout of my post confused you, I did not aim the whole post at you, looking at it again I can see why you thought that but only the first few paragraphs were directed to you.[/b]
You post it here then it becomes a respone both personally and publically to those who have participated in this thread. And to those who are also vewing this thread.
I wasn't saying that you personally don't know how to code, I assumed from your advice in your first post that you can.
But you dont stop at making a general assumption that those who use Wysiwyg editors can't code. Which is totally unfounded and absolutely has no backing. There are far more users of Wysiwyg editors that can indeed code than a mom and pop user who just uses a wysiwyg editor to make a site for their cousins, brothers, children, grandchildren to come and see.
One part that I was commenting on was the following statement:
and "if you can't code html, don't be a webd esigner" is purely and IGNORANT and flame ridden comment. Puhlease.
In a time when companies want fast and efficient, they rather have you work with a WYSIWYG editor and clean up the code then hand-input code over and over again, especially if its the same coding over and over again.
To clean up the code requires a knowledge of the language, so how can you say that his comment is ignorant? It's like saying, if you can't use a hammer, don't be a joiner. Pretty self-explanitory stuff.
A company wont hire someone unless they show proficiency in what they are doing. If someone stated on their application that they know HTML and understand it, Im sure they DO KNOW HTML and understand it. IF they state they know JavaScripting, IM SURE They do know Java Scripting. You are putting the "mom and pop" users along with the professionals into the same category, and that's a blanket assumption.
And you took my comment out of context since it was in reply to someone who pretty much attacked anyone who used a WYWISYG editor.
I keep seeing all over the place that Dreamweaver creates things faster than hand coding yet I have still to see any proof of this.
Okay, type in <img src="blah.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah2.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah3.jpg" border="0"> down until you reach blah1000.jpg and see how long it takes you. I can tell you that by the time you type in blah10. someone with a wysiwyg editor would be on image 25. And no "use" of copy and paste; that is if you wanna get at "real coding"
I know the languages and can code IMO pretty quickly. Because I know the languages then I know what to type and when. Using an editor still requires you to know how to do some things and can easily take longer to do certain tasks than it would for me to hand code.
Fine; it used to take me 15-20 minutes per page when I coded. With DW I take 3-8 min at most; 2-3 to make sure everything is kosher.
I think the layout of my post confused you, I did not aim the whole post at you, looking at it again I can see why you thought that but only the first few paragraphs were directed to you.[/b]
You post it here then it becomes a respone both personally and publically to those who have participated in this thread. And to those who are also vewing this thread.
I wasn't saying that you personally don't know how to code, I assumed from your advice in your first post that you can.
But you dont stop at making a general assumption that those who use Wysiwyg editors can't code. Which is totally unfounded and absolutely has no backing. There are far more users of Wysiwyg editors that can indeed code than a mom and pop user who just uses a wysiwyg editor to make a site for their cousins, brothers, children, grandchildren to come and see.
One part that I was commenting on was the following statement:
and "if you can't code html, don't be a webd esigner" is purely and IGNORANT and flame ridden comment. Puhlease.
In a time when companies want fast and efficient, they rather have you work with a WYSIWYG editor and clean up the code then hand-input code over and over again, especially if its the same coding over and over again.
To clean up the code requires a knowledge of the language, so how can you say that his comment is ignorant? It's like saying, if you can't use a hammer, don't be a joiner. Pretty self-explanitory stuff.
A company wont hire someone unless they show proficiency in what they are doing. If someone stated on their application that they know HTML and understand it, Im sure they DO KNOW HTML and understand it. IF they state they know JavaScripting, IM SURE They do know Java Scripting. You are putting the "mom and pop" users along with the professionals into the same category, and that's a blanket assumption.
And you took my comment out of context since it was in reply to someone who pretty much attacked anyone who used a WYWISYG editor.
I keep seeing all over the place that Dreamweaver creates things faster than hand coding yet I have still to see any proof of this.
Okay, type in <img src="blah.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah2.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah3.jpg" border="0"> down until you reach blah1000.jpg and see how long it takes you. I can tell you that by the time you type in blah10. someone with a wysiwyg editor would be on image 25. And no "use" of copy and paste; that is if you wanna get at "real coding"
I know the languages and can code IMO pretty quickly. Because I know the languages then I know what to type and when. Using an editor still requires you to know how to do some things and can easily take longer to do certain tasks than it would for me to hand code.
Fine; it used to take me 15-20 minutes per page when I coded. With DW I take 3-8 min at most; 2-3 to make sure everything is kosher.
But you dont stop at making a general assumption that those who use Wysiwyg editors can't code. Which is totally unfounded and absolutely has no backing. There are far more users of Wysiwyg editors that can indeed code than a mom and pop user who just uses a wysiwyg editor to make a site for their cousins, brothers, children, grandchildren to come and see.
Where exactly did I say or imply this? If you read my posts again, you will see the following:
So are we agreed that the above paragraph was not directed towards you?
Okay, type in <img src="blah.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah2.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah3.jpg" border="0"> down until you reach blah1000.jpg and see how long it takes you. I can tell you that by the time you type in blah10. someone with a wysiwyg editor would be on image 25. And no "use" of copy and paste; that is if you wanna get at "real coding"
Hand coding does not mean you can not use copy/paste, this is an inbuilt function of the OS and therefor is available whether or not you hand code or use an editor.
If I was to do the above code, it would take me a few minutes no matter whether there were 1000 or 100,000 links. I use a text editor that allows the use of regular expressions and would create that code for me from a single regex.
Because I hand code does not mean I cannot automate processes, you seem to find this hard to understand. The code I am creating is exactly what I type in though, I do not have a visual editor create the actual code for me.
Fine; it used to take me 15-20 minutes per page when I coded. With DW I take 3-8 min at most; 2-3 to make sure everything is kosher.
First things first. All pages will take different amounts of time, you can't say because of this that hand coding is 2 or 3 times slower than creating the code in an editor.
The pages that you create in an editor within 10 minutes, I could create hand coding within the same time, I have no doubts about that.
Off topic
I hope you take this as it is mean't and not as me having a go at you, because everyone makes mistakes and this would be an easy to make error whether you hand coded or used an editor.
I took a look at your coding on your arus site, check line 530 + 531, you have duplicate <tr> tags.
snowboardr,
You comment above about MX being so much better than hand coding brings me to a question.
I looked at your site and wondered, Is it DW or you that creates the code for your site? Do you check the coding that DW creates?
<td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font><font size="1"></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="1"><a class="feature" href="lessons/forms.asp?ref=com"><img src="images/small/gry_dot_s.gif" width="10" height="11" border="0"></a></font></b></font><font size="1"><a class="feature" href="lessons/Lesson_1.asp?ref=com">ASP
Basics</a></font></b></font></td>
These redundant font tags appear throughout the full site, about 20 loads of them on each page. If this is DW creating this, there is something seriously wrong, especially for the website of a design company.
Hope this helps
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
Where exactly did I say or imply this? If you read my posts again, you will see the following:
So are we agreed that the above paragraph was not directed towards you?
Okay, type in <img src="blah.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah2.jpg" border="0"> <img src="blah3.jpg" border="0"> down until you reach blah1000.jpg and see how long it takes you. I can tell you that by the time you type in blah10. someone with a wysiwyg editor would be on image 25. And no "use" of copy and paste; that is if you wanna get at "real coding"
Hand coding does not mean you can not use copy/paste, this is an inbuilt function of the OS and therefor is available whether or not you hand code or use an editor.
If I was to do the above code, it would take me a few minutes no matter whether there were 1000 or 100,000 links. I use a text editor that allows the use of regular expressions and would create that code for me from a single regex.
Because I hand code does not mean I cannot automate processes, you seem to find this hard to understand. The code I am creating is exactly what I type in though, I do not have a visual editor create the actual code for me.
Fine; it used to take me 15-20 minutes per page when I coded. With DW I take 3-8 min at most; 2-3 to make sure everything is kosher.
First things first. All pages will take different amounts of time, you can't say because of this that hand coding is 2 or 3 times slower than creating the code in an editor.
The pages that you create in an editor within 10 minutes, I could create hand coding within the same time, I have no doubts about that.
Off topic
I hope you take this as it is mean't and not as me having a go at you, because everyone makes mistakes and this would be an easy to make error whether you hand coded or used an editor.
I took a look at your coding on your arus site, check line 530 + 531, you have duplicate <tr> tags.
snowboardr,
You comment above about MX being so much better than hand coding brings me to a question.
I looked at your site and wondered, Is it DW or you that creates the code for your site? Do you check the coding that DW creates?
<td><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font><font size="1"></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font></b></font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="#666666"><b><font size="1"><a class="feature" href="lessons/forms.asp?ref=com"><img src="images/small/gry_dot_s.gif" width="10" height="11" border="0"></a></font></b></font><font size="1"><a class="feature" href="lessons/Lesson_1.asp?ref=com">ASP
Basics</a></font></b></font></td>
These redundant font tags appear throughout the full site, about 20 loads of them on each page. If this is DW creating this, there is something seriously wrong, especially for the website of a design company.
Hope this helps
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
snowboardr,
One more thing I just noticed. It is invalid HTML to start the body content of a site with a table cell.
<BODY BGCOLOR="#CCCCCC" topmargin="0" leftmargin="0" bottommargin="0">
<td valign="top" width="100%">
Hope this helps
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
One more thing I just noticed. It is invalid HTML to start the body content of a site with a table cell.
<BODY BGCOLOR="#CCCCCC" topmargin="0" leftmargin="0" bottommargin="0">
<td valign="top" width="100%">
Hope this helps
Wullie
The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change.
The leader adjusts the sails. - John Maxwell
cian
Technical User
- Oct 11, 2001
- 1,383
Had to get in on this one 
...the never ending wysiwyg vs hand-coding arguement.
Some random points:
Dreamweaver is an excellent tool for what it does but it has ALWAYS created bloated code (best example is in the case of dynamic effetcs).
I HAVE USED it in the past and have seen the code it creates but will never return to this because coding by hand gives me so much better control over the code and I learn more about coding and how to troubleshoot problems.
But bloated code is not the biggest problem I see, it's over dependance on the program I think is the biggest problem. MOST Dreamweaver users CAN also code but I have met many users who CANNOT code and so the problem becomes over-dependance on the program, and every program has limitations. Coding by hand the only limitation are your knowledge and skill will which continue to grow anyway.
And what happens when you need to edit a site but don't have your program available? This has happened to me in the past but because I code by hand I could simply use textpad to make the changes, or edit the page directly online.
I'm not a fast coder and an expert dreamweaver user might be able to create a site twice as fast but why is speed such an issue? I enjoy coding, so IF it takes me a bit longer by hand so be it. And I know what output I prefer, my text editor!
Employers: if an employer listed knowledge of a wysiwyg editor as essential or even desirable i'd feel a little uneasy about working for them. I simply don't trust these programs, personal opinion here
And what if an employer wanted an expert hand-coder (some do), would a wysiwyg user be so confident in their hand-coding abilities?
Just one comment that stuck out which I wanted to respond to:
"In a time when companies want fast and efficient, they rather have you work with a WYSIWYG editor and clean up the code "
do companies really want you working with a tool whose output you have to back and clean up?? How much time is spent cleaning up this code?
Would it not be best to write clean code in the first place? Would this not be faster and more efficient?
If you like working with dreamweaver then use it. I know Frontpage users who will argue till the cows come home that it's the best tool for web design. What do the professionals say about that!?!
As for using PHOTOSHOP for web design, if it works for you go for it but I personally don't think this can ever be an option. Photoshop if a fantastic tool for GRAPHICS not for designing a whole site.
Last point, i'm not a professional designer only a hobbyist but would be confident enough in my hand-coding abilities to go up against any wysiwyg user, IF the case every arose to do so. :-D![[2thumbsup]](/data/assets/smilies/2thumbsup.gif "[2thumbsup] [2thumbsup]")
%-) ![[peace]](/data/assets/smilies/peace.gif "[peace] [peace]")
- É -
...the never ending wysiwyg vs hand-coding arguement.
Some random points:
Dreamweaver is an excellent tool for what it does but it has ALWAYS created bloated code (best example is in the case of dynamic effetcs).
I HAVE USED it in the past and have seen the code it creates but will never return to this because coding by hand gives me so much better control over the code and I learn more about coding and how to troubleshoot problems.
But bloated code is not the biggest problem I see, it's over dependance on the program I think is the biggest problem. MOST Dreamweaver users CAN also code but I have met many users who CANNOT code and so the problem becomes over-dependance on the program, and every program has limitations. Coding by hand the only limitation are your knowledge and skill will which continue to grow anyway.
And what happens when you need to edit a site but don't have your program available? This has happened to me in the past but because I code by hand I could simply use textpad to make the changes, or edit the page directly online.
I'm not a fast coder and an expert dreamweaver user might be able to create a site twice as fast but why is speed such an issue? I enjoy coding, so IF it takes me a bit longer by hand so be it. And I know what output I prefer, my text editor!
Employers: if an employer listed knowledge of a wysiwyg editor as essential or even desirable i'd feel a little uneasy about working for them. I simply don't trust these programs, personal opinion here
And what if an employer wanted an expert hand-coder (some do), would a wysiwyg user be so confident in their hand-coding abilities?
Just one comment that stuck out which I wanted to respond to:
"In a time when companies want fast and efficient, they rather have you work with a WYSIWYG editor and clean up the code "
do companies really want you working with a tool whose output you have to back and clean up?? How much time is spent cleaning up this code?
Would it not be best to write clean code in the first place? Would this not be faster and more efficient?
If you like working with dreamweaver then use it. I know Frontpage users who will argue till the cows come home that it's the best tool for web design. What do the professionals say about that!?!
As for using PHOTOSHOP for web design, if it works for you go for it but I personally don't think this can ever be an option. Photoshop if a fantastic tool for GRAPHICS not for designing a whole site.
Last point, i'm not a professional designer only a hobbyist but would be confident enough in my hand-coding abilities to go up against any wysiwyg user, IF the case every arose to do so. :-D
%-) - É -
Sorry, I disagree that the industry would rahter have a hand-coder over a wysiwyg user. I've worked for three web design companies, and NONE have stated that. All they care about is what you can do, how you can do it, and the quality of work you can do for the money they are paying you. In fact at my last job, if you didn't know at least one Wysiwyg editor, they wouldn't hire you.
all three could have cared less about the tools I used to accomplish the task. They just want the job done
But, if people would stop lumping "mom and pop" user together with those who do it professionally, this argument would never come up.
If the "mom and pop" user doesn't want to learn HTML and jst get a page up for their relatives/cousins/aunts/uncles to see, then who are we to criticize them to do so?
As a professional, I'd expect more.
I know Joe Schmoe users who put "extra" code into their pages (by hand) because they just thought it did something. So, dont assume that its all done by wysiwyg editors.
Having taught three classes in HTML for an internship program, I've seen a lot of cases where "it looks cool" was the main reason they put it in.
all three could have cared less about the tools I used to accomplish the task. They just want the job done
But, if people would stop lumping "mom and pop" user together with those who do it professionally, this argument would never come up.
If the "mom and pop" user doesn't want to learn HTML and jst get a page up for their relatives/cousins/aunts/uncles to see, then who are we to criticize them to do so?
As a professional, I'd expect more.
I know Joe Schmoe users who put "extra" code into their pages (by hand) because they just thought it did something. So, dont assume that its all done by wysiwyg editors.
Having taught three classes in HTML for an internship program, I've seen a lot of cases where "it looks cool" was the main reason they put it in.
snowboardr
Programmer
Thanks for pointing that out Wullie, I was aware of this after I built the template a year or two ago, I plan to use mx 2004 and go with css soon just havn't had the time.
- Jason
www.vzio.com
ASP WEB DEVELOPMENT
- Jason
www.vzio.com
ASP WEB DEVELOPMENT
cian
Technical User
- Oct 11, 2001
- 1,383
WizyWyg
my statement was what if an employer...
I agree that an employer doesn't really care what tools you use but if I was an employer I would seriously question the use of a tool where you had to go back and make changes to the output (as was mentioned earlier), makes good business sense, IMO.
Who is lumping the "mom and pop" user with the professionals?
1 bad thing about these tools is that they allow "mom and pop" users to pass themselves off as professionals.
I recently helped a "Prefessional web designer" figure out a problem with a site that was soooo easy anyone with even an iota of html knowledge could do. I also helped a "web design company" add a third column to a 2 column template...how easy is that?? No matter what tool you use you should be able to code by hand also, IMO.
The arguement will always come up, nothing is black and white. As well as professionals with an expert knowledge of code you get "professionals" with zero knowledge of code.
Who's really criticising here?
We are all expressing opinions, and if our opinion is negative towards a particular way of doing things or a particular tool it's not necessarily criticism but rather the suggestion of an alternative method which we believe to be better.
As a professional i am sure you can understand that we all have our own ways of doing things. As a hand-coder I DO think that is the best way to build web pages but that is just my opinion and not a statement of fact.
- É -
my statement was what if an employer...
I agree that an employer doesn't really care what tools you use but if I was an employer I would seriously question the use of a tool where you had to go back and make changes to the output (as was mentioned earlier), makes good business sense, IMO.
Who is lumping the "mom and pop" user with the professionals?
1 bad thing about these tools is that they allow "mom and pop" users to pass themselves off as professionals.
I recently helped a "Prefessional web designer" figure out a problem with a site that was soooo easy anyone with even an iota of html knowledge could do. I also helped a "web design company" add a third column to a 2 column template...how easy is that?? No matter what tool you use you should be able to code by hand also, IMO.
The arguement will always come up, nothing is black and white. As well as professionals with an expert knowledge of code you get "professionals" with zero knowledge of code.
Who's really criticising here?
We are all expressing opinions, and if our opinion is negative towards a particular way of doing things or a particular tool it's not necessarily criticism but rather the suggestion of an alternative method which we believe to be better.
As a professional i am sure you can understand that we all have our own ways of doing things. As a hand-coder I DO think that is the best way to build web pages but that is just my opinion and not a statement of fact.
- É -
WizyWyg
my statement was what if an employer...
Hypothethical. And again, I've worked for several companies already for web design, and NONE have ever asked that you do web design via a text editor ONLY. All asked what kind of web design tools I would need or asked if I already knew how to use FrontPage or Dreamweaver, and to show my age, Adobe PageMill.
I agree that an employer doesn't really care what tools you use but if I was an employer I would seriously question the use of a tool where you had to go back and make changes to the output (as was mentioned earlier), makes good business sense, IMO.
No matter what tool you use. Even a text editor, you would still have to go over your code for mistakes ( spelling, syntax, or wrongly copy and pated code ). So, what you are trying to "blame" on the fault of only WYSIWYG editors, happens with manual coding as well.
Who is lumping the "mom and pop" user with the professionals?
Everyone. Everyone who believes that a person can make a website/webpage is generalizing.
1 bad thing about these tools is that they allow "mom and pop" users to pass themselves off as professionals.
I've never seen that happen, and one could tell who a "mom and pop" user is vs a professional. That doesn't take a genious.
I recently helped a "Prefessional web designer" figure out a problem with a site that was soooo easy anyone with even an iota of html knowledge could do. I also helped a "web design company" add a third column to a 2 column template...how easy is that?? No matter what tool you use you should be able to code by hand also, IMO.
Apparently their "employers" have lower expectations of their help that they hire. I dont. I would have never hired such a person.
The arguement will always come up, nothing is black and white. As well as professionals with an expert knowledge of code you get "professionals" with zero knowledge of code.
So what makes a WYSIWYG user with the same knowledge of HTML CSS and any coding any less of a person than a person who manually codes? Does to the tool make him/her qualified? Or does what they matter?
That's what IM attacking. BLANKET statements that have been made throughout this thread. "If you can't code html, don't be a web designer". NOW WTF kinda statement is that? I can design just fine and I started out using a book on HTML 2.0 . The graphical stuff came later.
Who's really criticising here?
We are all expressing opinions, and if our opinion is negative towards a particular way of doing things or a particular tool it's not necessarily criticism but rather the suggestion of an alternative method which we believe to be better.
Which is WHY i stated at the beginning of this whole thing, THAT Photoshop is not a program, meant to CREATE your website. ITs a design tool to help you create what is needed to support your website. Which IS why i suggested to the original OP to read up ON HTML,CSS,XHTML,DHTML before even attempting to design a website.
As a professional i am sure you can understand that we all have our own ways of doing things. As a hand-coder I DO think that is the best way to build web pages but that is just my opinion and not a statement of fact.
And as a person who does both, is it wrong for me to tell the OP NOT to use a graphics program to make website?
my statement was what if an employer...
Hypothethical. And again, I've worked for several companies already for web design, and NONE have ever asked that you do web design via a text editor ONLY. All asked what kind of web design tools I would need or asked if I already knew how to use FrontPage or Dreamweaver, and to show my age, Adobe PageMill.
I agree that an employer doesn't really care what tools you use but if I was an employer I would seriously question the use of a tool where you had to go back and make changes to the output (as was mentioned earlier), makes good business sense, IMO.
No matter what tool you use. Even a text editor, you would still have to go over your code for mistakes ( spelling, syntax, or wrongly copy and pated code ). So, what you are trying to "blame" on the fault of only WYSIWYG editors, happens with manual coding as well.
Who is lumping the "mom and pop" user with the professionals?
Everyone. Everyone who believes that a person can make a website/webpage is generalizing.
1 bad thing about these tools is that they allow "mom and pop" users to pass themselves off as professionals.
I've never seen that happen, and one could tell who a "mom and pop" user is vs a professional. That doesn't take a genious.
I recently helped a "Prefessional web designer" figure out a problem with a site that was soooo easy anyone with even an iota of html knowledge could do. I also helped a "web design company" add a third column to a 2 column template...how easy is that?? No matter what tool you use you should be able to code by hand also, IMO.
Apparently their "employers" have lower expectations of their help that they hire. I dont. I would have never hired such a person.
The arguement will always come up, nothing is black and white. As well as professionals with an expert knowledge of code you get "professionals" with zero knowledge of code.
So what makes a WYSIWYG user with the same knowledge of HTML CSS and any coding any less of a person than a person who manually codes? Does to the tool make him/her qualified? Or does what they matter?
That's what IM attacking. BLANKET statements that have been made throughout this thread. "If you can't code html, don't be a web designer". NOW WTF kinda statement is that? I can design just fine and I started out using a book on HTML 2.0 . The graphical stuff came later.
Who's really criticising here?
We are all expressing opinions, and if our opinion is negative towards a particular way of doing things or a particular tool it's not necessarily criticism but rather the suggestion of an alternative method which we believe to be better.
Which is WHY i stated at the beginning of this whole thing, THAT Photoshop is not a program, meant to CREATE your website. ITs a design tool to help you create what is needed to support your website. Which IS why i suggested to the original OP to read up ON HTML,CSS,XHTML,DHTML before even attempting to design a website.
As a professional i am sure you can understand that we all have our own ways of doing things. As a hand-coder I DO think that is the best way to build web pages but that is just my opinion and not a statement of fact.
And as a person who does both, is it wrong for me to tell the OP NOT to use a graphics program to make website?
cian
Technical User
- Oct 11, 2001
- 1,383
WizyWyg
1. I have met design companies who also required experience of hand-coding.
2. i'm not trying to blame anything on the tools, it was you who said it in the first place that the code needs to be cleaned up. I rarely have to clean code, I use shortcuts to insert code snippets which have correct syntax. Content spell checking - yes of course
3. "Mom and pop professionals" passing themselves off... it is very obvious to us but to clients? I think not!
4. So what makes a WYSIWYG user with the same knowledge of HTML CSS and any coding any less of a person than a person who manually codes?
did I say that???
my point was directed at your comment that professional wysiwyg users can also code by hand, i was saying that some can't and I happen to think code knowledge is important no matter what tool you use. Do you not agree, why did you learn to code by hand?
5. "If you can't code html, don't be a web designer". NOW WTF kinda statement is that?
I sure as hell didn't say that! And certianly don't agree with it. I really don't care who wants to be a designer or what tool they use. Doesn't mean though that I can't have an opinion on what's the best (not the only) way to do it.
6. Which is WHY i stated at the beginning of this whole thing, THAT Photoshop is not a program, meant to CREATE your website
And as a person who does both, is it wrong for me to tell the OP NOT to use a graphics program to make website?
We were never arguing about this, i totally agree with you and have already stated my opinion on Photoshop as a web design tool.
Sin é, time to do some work.
- É -
1. I have met design companies who also required experience of hand-coding.
2. i'm not trying to blame anything on the tools, it was you who said it in the first place that the code needs to be cleaned up. I rarely have to clean code, I use shortcuts to insert code snippets which have correct syntax. Content spell checking - yes of course
3. "Mom and pop professionals" passing themselves off... it is very obvious to us but to clients? I think not!
4. So what makes a WYSIWYG user with the same knowledge of HTML CSS and any coding any less of a person than a person who manually codes?
did I say that???
my point was directed at your comment that professional wysiwyg users can also code by hand, i was saying that some can't and I happen to think code knowledge is important no matter what tool you use. Do you not agree, why did you learn to code by hand?
5. "If you can't code html, don't be a web designer". NOW WTF kinda statement is that?
I sure as hell didn't say that! And certianly don't agree with it. I really don't care who wants to be a designer or what tool they use. Doesn't mean though that I can't have an opinion on what's the best (not the only) way to do it.
6. Which is WHY i stated at the beginning of this whole thing, THAT Photoshop is not a program, meant to CREATE your website
And as a person who does both, is it wrong for me to tell the OP NOT to use a graphics program to make website?
We were never arguing about this, i totally agree with you and have already stated my opinion on Photoshop as a web design tool.
Sin é, time to do some work.
- É -
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