How about some honest answers? 10

[njshade]

Being recently laid off as a bench tech after
11 years of faithful service due to lack of work,
I have come to the conclusion that I have gone as
far as possible in the repair field (ie component
level repair of computers and printers) and am
looking to networking as my career.
I made the rounds of some of the local networking
schools in my area and came to one very stark
realization, the networking education business
must be very lucrative indeed.
Now I am looking for some HONEST answers as to the
REAL purpose of these schools. Most of them promise
me a starting salary upon completion of their courses
which is lower than what I was already making.
When I go to places like computerjobs.com
to research openings in the MSCE field I find that
just about all employers are looking for a
few years experience in addition to certification.
I have a great deal of hands on hardware
experience but little hands on networking
experience. What I would like to know from those
of you who have been in my situation and who
have completed certification training is this;
do you honestly feel that this training and
the additional expense of all the testing prepared you
for the practical hands on requirements needed to do
an acceptable job in the networking field or did it just
teach you how to pass the required tests to get there.

 

[Losthoosier]

I feel that it is a very good way to go. I am a husband and father of 2 and my wife stays home with the kids. I don't have a college degree but I am able to do this because of my certifications. Another thing I like about it is that anywhere you go, you can get a job. The salary is not bad and better that a lot of my friends and family who spend several years in traditional education.
As far as the worth of it as far as actually working. The answer is both yes and no. My certification courses didn't teach me everything under the sun. However, when I got out in the field, I ran into things that I had never seen before and was able to fall back on the skills and training I received by going this route. No it is not a wonder drug, but I believe that it is well worth it.
I hope this was helpful.
Losthoosier

 

[njshade]

I have thought that networking was the way to go
for some time now. Ideally I had hoped to get
training by my previous employer and thereby spare
myself the expense.
I still remember all of the inane nonsense I was
subjected to getting through digital training many
moons ago and how little of it I actually ever
needed to use.
That's why I am looking to certify just as quickly
as possible with as much practical knowledge as I
can aquire.
But I look at some of the questions on the test
and it appears as if the only thing being tested is
one's ability to memorize by rote with not much
consideration for "real world" problems.

 

[Guest_imported]

I feel thats the only way to go. Without the training and classroom environment you'll be asking a book questions which of course you have to hope it has the answers. I found that every hour I spend in the class with other students is worth more then 8 hours on my own. I'm looking forward to setting in on all the Windows2000 classes.



MCT, MCSE
USA (RET)

 

[dominator]

It is a worthy investment, just be careful what you buy into. I went to a fast track course outside Baltimore that offered Microsoft and Exam Cram books, unlimited access to Measureup.com (practice testing), they pay the exam vouchers and they guarantee certification otherwise they continue to train you until you pass. All this plus classroom training and hands-on lab work. And the most critical component: networking with other IT pros. It was inexpensive(comparison-wise) and was a worthwhile investment. Just make sure you get a worthwhile certification out of it (from Novell, Microsoft or Cisco, not just a certificate from their school that you passed their course). It takes both experience and letters after your name to get in the door. The tests only measure your ability to memorize books but are a necessary evil. Email me if you are interested in the school I went to, well worth the 1 hour commute from Pennsylvania for me. Also remember that the $75,000 salary they brag about on the radio as an MCSE salary is a national average! Not everyone lives in Boston or Silicon Valley!

 

[CitrixEngineer]

It is true that having the MSCE qualification will open many career doors for you. I do not feel, however, that it adequately prepares anyone for managing an NT network.

I have worked for nearly 20 years in an IT environment, one way or another, and do not have this qualification because my employers would rather have me on site fixing problems or building servers and administering the network than attending expensive courses.

I have, in that time, encountered many "paper" MSCEs, who come in and, Dilbert-style, "Summon the magical powers of certification". I then get called in to come and fix the mess.

If you already have good hardware and operating system experience, then you are well positioned, and an MSCE will help you get a good position. Networking is a bit of a black art, if you are totally new to it, and it is worth setting up a network at home, if you can.

Especially if you can set up an old P120 with Linux on it and get it to communicate with a Windows 9x or NT - based machine. This will give you the most basic flavour.

Find out as much as you can about TCP/IP. There is hardly a network in the world that doesn't utilise it to some extent - even if it's only for an internet connection.

The tests, as some of the posts here indicate, are generally an indication of whether you can remember what you have learned, not what you will encounter in the real world.

My advice to anyone interested in networking, but without the experience is to start a little lower in the IT field, such as a helpdesk, or first level desktop support, and get used to working in that environment. If your skills really are too good for the position you are in, chances are (with the current skills shortage) someone will notice, and you will advance quickly. Start too high and you'll feel swamped.

In short, the qualification is useful, but to get on you'll need a couple of years experience. Together, this is a winning combination in today's marketplace.

I hope this advice is useful.

 

[Voyager1]

CitrixEngineer is dead on the money. The MCSE credential was, once upon a time, a very valuable certification - as was the CNE but more so. Over the years, mostly due to "brain dumps" and "boot camps" the market has become flooded - making it still desirable but far less valuable than it once was. Being an MCSE will not get you a job, but it will, in many cases, open doors to advanced interviews. The rest is up to you.

Start with A+, consider Network+ on top of that. These are both recognized, vendor-neutral certs that will help.

And, absolutely, see if you can get on the help desk or desktop support staff from a large company. You'll have many peers to learn from, and get exposed to a wide variety of technologies and situations in a fairly short period of time.

Good luck to you - this is the only industry I can imagine myself in.

 

[OldSkoolSkater]

Hope this is not too late in coming!
I did the MCSE route last year as a career change, and didn't find it too difficult (had to put the work in though). Like others have said, The certification does not suitably prepare you for a full blown networking job. This however, is what I got straight after my Training! (and I did feel out of my depth!)
To be fair though, I am not in a pure NT environment which would explain my initial despair/reservations. Your salary will be lower than current as you are starting in a new career field - it can only go up though. I started on a contract and am getting paid more than the permanent staff!!.
I am learning at a steep rate now and am becoming more proficient by the day.
All the best

 

[ByronGC]

Have been working as a Computer Consultant (billing $1000 per day) for about 20 years for some very large companies an I dropped out in September to get my MCSE 2000 at a local NJ College. I never had the time to get certifications
1) Everyone in this business is on a level keel as the NT 4 certifications are going away, and everyone must go to Win2000.
2) Win2000 Certification wou't help you run or design a network, it only will give you tools as to what is possible and available.
3) My class ( about $5000)isn't really good on training to pass tests or knowing all about Win2000, but it does give me the structure and time to study on my own to pass the tests.
4) You may not start out after certification with the large salary, but with the certifications you can get there and without the MCSE (or CNE, etc.), your chances are becomming less and less. My earning were starting to be passed by young people out of Computer Science Degrees with a couple of years experience

Good Luck

 

[chiph]

Like CitrixEngineer and Voyager1 have said, I've seen many "paper" CNEs, and have looked on them with scorn.

But since I was laid-off in December and started reading the want-ads (should have been all along, but you know how it goes...), I've noticed that some companies make having certification a job requirement. In such cases, your resume won't get past the HR department.

I think these companies are making a mistake, as they'll just end up with people with good short-term memory . But seeing as that's how the game is starting to be played, I have no choice but to pursue certification myself.

Chip H.

BTW: I start at my new job on Monday, no certification required (they knew my reputation), and the new company will pay up to $1500/yr for training which I will use towards testing.

 

[sdunk]

Certs aren't the end all be all. But, they do give a good basis to start troubleshooting problems. They also get your foot in the door.
I self studied for A+ and MCSE, so I can't give advice on classes to take. For test questions use transcenders, for prep material use sams or sybex and cramsessions from brainbuzz (they are free from the website).
I'm currently studying for CCNA using Cisco and Lammale's training books. Boson test software and router sim. A buddy just took the test and recommended the Boson software, over the transcenders for this one.
There is really no such thing as a "paper" cert. The guys that spit out that dribble, just lack the discipline to study. They may know their network, but drop them into another company and they'll be bumbling around just like the people their complaining about.
It's kinda of like calling a college grad a "paper" engineer, social worker, business manager,etc..

 

[CitrixEngineer]

Interesting point of view, sdunk.

I must admit that my viewpoint is only based on my limited experience.

To cut a long story short, I graduated with a degree in computer science, then joined a helpdesk for a local authority. As people left, I filled shoes, ending up as senior network administrator, moving 750 users away from a Novell implementation to a Citrix implementatio n.

I left to take up my current position, where I am constantly thrown into new situations and unknown networks on a day-to-day basis.

My statements, although slightly barbed, reflect my general experience. I did, in fact, meet several people with MSCE, CNE, and other qualifications who were outstanding technical individuals.

I also met a large number of "paper certs". This is nothing like a graduate, who has 3+ years of intensive study and day-to-day access to university resources at his/her diposal. Nor does it apply to someone just because they hold an A+, MSCE or any other industry qualification.

Don't forget that to pass a degree requires annual testing in the form of several lengthy and abstract written papers (along the lines of "To what extent...", or "Discuss...&quot, not multiple choice/guess. For a computing degree, there are also continually assessed practical projects. Papers are then critically examined by an external team over a long period of time, not instantly marked by computer.

The difference between a paper cert and a respected technician is the quality of ability and breadth and depth of experience.

Too many times I've had to get in a temporary contractor (with MSCE), who has not got the experience necessary to do the job. HR take the contractor on after "skills matching" the CV to the job. A few white lies, and we end up employing monkeys.

It's great that people have the motivation to get certified through whatever means they have available - I can't knock these on-line courses; they're very good.

The bottom line is that you can learn all the answers to test questions you like. When faced with a real-world scenario you've got to be able to apply the knowledge, not supply "Answer D".

 

[Voyager1]

When I speak of "paper MCSEs", I am talking about those individuals who attend these "We can take you from zero to MCSE in 3 weeks" boot camps. These unfortunate souls (because they dropped a ton of cash) spend 3 weeks drilling questions. They may be able to pass the tests, but sit them down at the keyboard and they are lost.

Haven't taken the MS 2000 Exams yet, but from what I understand they are designed so that if you have no experience whatsoever with Win2K you will fail. This is the way it should be!

Microsoft needs to look at what Cisco has established - a certification program that really means something. IMHO.

 

[Pretender]

I'm not sure how related my question is to this newsgroup -- but how revelant is obtaining a microsoft certification, if you already have a technical/engineering degree from a reputable university? I'm considering studying for the certifications during my summers (still in school) while I intern at a CS-related company, but I'm wondering how much this is worth? Is having the university degree enough for employers nowadays? Or is having the certification really going to make it easier for me to find an industry job when I graduate? In other words, will having the certifications open more doors, and offer a significant increase in salary versus just having the university degree? Thanks.

 

[MMB]

Honestly, I would desire a candidate for employment to hold a minimum BS Degree in a computer related field for a Network Adnministrator type position if I was doing the hiring. I would also desire the candidate to have extensive experience with Microsoft or "other" products.

An MCSE to me any more is an entry level certification.

It doesnt hurt to have MCSE certification. I just feel it way overrated.

 

[Voyager1]

Just out of curiosity, what does the BS degree mean to you, as a potential employer? - Bill

"You can get anything you want out of life, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want" - Zig Ziglar

 

[MMB]

It means that an individual has been challenged in areas of writing, presentation (group and individual), mathematics and other social and managerial areas that can be measured via the way of a University Degree.

The emphasis on these areas is often overlooked. Yes, technical skills are needed for a computer related position but I feel the areas mentioned above are also important for a well rounded individual.

 

[NewProg]

My question is also related to the certification. I have a PhD in science and I am willing to change career to programming... What is my best chance to find a job? To go ahead and study to get a certification (which I am currently doing) or to get a degree (do I really have to? I've already spent yeeeeaaaars of my life in school).

So I have the following question for all of you and especially for Voyager1:
Is any company going to give me a chance if I tell them: Ok, I took some programming classes, I know programming (C, java, VB), I passed the microsoft certifications but I don't have any experience yet except the projects that I had to do for my classes... I feel a little bit discouraged when I check the job ads and they all ask for 3 or 4 years experience...

Thanks

 

[chiph]

... I feel a little bit discouraged when I check the job ads and they all ask for 3 or 4 years experience...

Apply anyway. A lot of times a company will do that just to "fish" for applicants, hoping to land a whopper.

Chip H.

 

[Stiltman]

What about those of us that don't have a BS degree? I've been working in the IT industry for 7 years now and still only have an Associates Degree. I'm presently persuing my MCSE cert in an effort to better myself. Do I regret not having a BS degree? Sure, but then again I needed to support myself more than I needed the extra two years of school. I'll eventually put myself through those last two years, but employers seem to forget that not everyone has a free ride to college (no disrespect to those that worked their way through school).

I'm surprised anyone's even looking at the want ads in their local paper anymore. Seems like there are less and less IT jobs being posted in the newspaper.