Help with networking using pre-existing Cat-5e.

[TwstdVTECSol816]

First post.

Im networking a friend of mine's house and when they built it (Summer 02), they put in Cat-5e for the phone lines. I plan on hooking up a router (Linksys BEFSR41) and cable modem where the lines (4 total) enter the house. I already made the connectors on one end but when I opened up the phone jacks for each room, the installers cut off 3-4 inches of insulation (ive read that this is usually done for voice transmission). The wires are also untwisted about an inch or two from the end (again, for phone lines). I tried pulling on the cable to see if I can start from where the insulation begins but it didnt budge. We want this to be as clean as possible. That's why we're using the Cat-5e thats already installed. Ive read on some other forum that the installers were supposed to have left a maintenance loop of maybe 18". In this case, they didnt.

What do you suggest I do? Should he call the General Contractor or the company that wired the house and make them redo it? Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[jeffbouldin]

Well I can tell you this from the perspective of an installer; If I was hired to install phone lines in a house, finished the job as contracted, and 6 monthes later someone came back and wanted it redone because he now wanted to use it for something else, I wouldn't feel obligated to redo it.

Now, if I the contract was to put in phone lines that could be converted to Cat 5e networking, then you have a case.

Worst case is you use the existing wire and you only get 10mps, that is not bad for a small house network.

Is there an open attic above or crawlspace\basement bellow? Might not be that hard to pull new wires to each location.

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

When contractors put in Cat-5e for phone lines, isnt it the intention that it will be used for networking later on OR is Cat-5e the standard now?

The lines are comming from the basement. It wont be hard but its wasting money only if they left a foot of extra cable at the jacks. I pulled on the ends and nothing moved. Johnson Nguyen
jnguyen@feltycc.net

 

[daronwilson]

As I read the EIA/TIA standards for residential wiring, 4 pair UTP that is Cat5 is the minimum for Grade 2 installations, Grade 1 can still have Cat3. Regardless, the wire is to be terminated on 568A work station outlets. Now, if you follow the standard, the initial Grade 2 installation will be completely ready for data networking if required.

In real life, we don't follow that for several reasons. Mainly the 6 pin connector is sloppy in an 8 pin jack and causes headaches later. So, what we generally do is install a Cat5e to the phone locations and terminate it on a 6 conductor USOC jack (leaving the brown pair spare). Then if the customer has asked for data, we pull 5e usually in a different color and put it on an 8 pin modular Cat5e jack.

I would echo the previous comment, if the customer asked for phone wiring, it sounds like he got what he paid for. I would consider that a Grade 1 installation, and if it were just phone it would meet the requirements (though it is sloppy). We do not normally use a service loop for residential wiring since it is normally just a nail on box and no real place to leave much of a loop. In our own defense, i have had to terminate jacks like you describe ONLY when the sheetrockers come thru and cut my wire in the box, leaving a 3" pigtail to work with. The best way would be to use mud rings and then stuff the wire back in the wall. Then in trimout you can pull a bunch out there and leave some slack if it needs changed.

One thing happening often that we run into is that many electricians have no idea how to do this. Out of probably 12 electrical contractors in our area, we are the only one with a telecommunications division with 3 full time people that just do telecom work. SO on a house, we show up after the sparkys ran their wire, we run our stuff away from their power, and when it is time for trimout we return to trim it out AND test it. The rest of the electricians just go buy Cat5e wire and pull it in, then terminate like they used to on phone jacks with screw terminals.

I recently read an article in the Electrical Contracting Magazine explaining how important testing is following installation. Here is the jest of the article. Mr. Contractor installs Cat5e for the homeowner, with the plan that the customer wants to have a data network. 6 months after the house is done, the homeowner tries to hook up his network, and has some electrical noise or it won't work. He calls in a professional and has them test the wiring. Come to find out, it will not pass Cat5e standards. Now, according to the FCC the customer was sold a Cat5e system and if the contractor can't deliver that, he is legally liable and may have to replace/repair the wiring. The moral was install quality wire and test it when the installation is done, then you are protected.

If you really want data, I would pull additional wiring (if it were me) so I had 4 pair Cat5e just for data. Also, i would guess that the existing wire all ends up out at the interface. Obviously that isnt where you want your switch to mount. So, it may be better to just pull a few more runs of Cat5e from the locations you need to a central switch location and have a compliant installation.

Good Luck! It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[exverizon]

Any install, data or voice, should leave some slack. There's too often a need for a bit of length, just as you've found. High speed drops with CAT 5e should not have sharp crimps, of course, but a gentile loop won't hurt. CAT 5 is pretty much standard fare anymore for any new install--voice or otherwise. To do less is really retro...not worthwhile. I'd only use quad (2 pr) for limited, exposed runs around a baseboard to a single RJ11 jack, or through a wall space to activate a single jack on the other side.

The argument that it was installed as "voice only" is, I think, weak. True, no one made any promises for its suitability for data, but it's hardly unexpected that a new homeowner will not be doing data over these drops. We're in the 21st century here, and we should not have to fall back on "you never said this was for internet connections." Please. If the builder really was expecting voice only, he had no reason to place CAT 5 at all. Heck, he could have also done the prewire as a loop and really given you a headache.

Sounds as if you're going to have to just terminate the jacks with more than the recommended jacket stripped away. You can twist the pairs tight, but there's no getting around the exposure of the pairs. Speed will sufffer, at least in theory, but I seriously doubt you're going to get it redone without a battle--and end up paying anyway. Forget it...make the best of what you've got.

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

My friend got the house in Summer 2002 and it was already wired up when he moved in. Im not sure if he got the chance to talk to the people who installed it or not. Now that I can see that it was done somewhat wrong in their, what are some specific reasons I can point out to the installer?

When I pulled on the cable from the jack, it didnt seem to want to move. I didnt want to pull too hard because ive never done this before and am afraid something might give. Do you think it is held onto something? To my understanding, Cat5e shouldnt be stapled like electrical cables because it interferes with data transfer. I can put a coupler on the basement end and extend the cable somewhat.

- Johnson Johnson Nguyen
jnguyen@feltycc.net

 

[executone]

I have done work after Electrician had installed cable, and it was done just as you describe. I usuale retwist wires and put a piece of shrink-tubing over cable. I then install new cat5e jack. I then push shrink-tubing upto jack to cover exposed wires. Being real careful shrink the tubing to cable jacket and wire. It is a pain, but it has worked for me. After trerminating other end on patchpanel, test cable with scanner.

Good Luck!!

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

I dont have a scanner on hand. This networking is just a DIY project for me and a friend. Ill try the shink tube idead though. Thanks for the advice. Johnson Nguyen
jnguyen@feltycc.net

 

[jonnybb1]

It seems you need to confirm how many cables are in each outlet. Do yu in fact have only a cat5 cable in each outlet, or do you 2 cabled in each? Are there as many cables in the phone-panel as there are for each outlet, or do you only see one cable that connects to the phone company equipment?
If you have a separate cable for each outlet (home runs) then you can connect them to a router via a patch-panel or cat5 plugs (using a crimper). If you have only one cable for both data a voice, then you will have to use the 10bt configuration (orange & green) with four wires, if you have 2 wires per outlet then use all 8 wires and color match them. Try to use Leviton (from Home Depot) as they come with the plastic tool for the jack. Then start troubleshooting any problems one at a time and let us know where you are...Good Luck
John Berry
LAntex Voice & Data Systems

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

As stated in my first post, there is 4 lines comming into the house, and 4 jacks. One jack in each room. I have the Linksys BEFSR41 Router, which is a router with a built in 4 port switch. Once everything is connected, how will I be able to test the speed of the network, instead of the connectivity? Thanks. Johnson Nguyen
Email - jnguyen@feltycc.net
AIM - TwstdVTECSol816

 

[jeffbouldin]

To clarify my post. I never was defending how it was installed. If I were to have done it, even if it was for phone only, I would have left more slack and done a better job terminating the wires. What I was commenting on was the practicality of getting the installer to redo his work. Unless you have a signed contract that states it was to be installed in a way that it could be later done to Cat 5e specs, you will not get it redone. Even if you did have a contract it would probably take more effort than it was worth to get them to redo the job. Factor in the fact that you bought the house this way, and your chances go down even further. Again I don't condone the way it was done.

For four computers 10mps is plenty of bandwidth. Terminate the wires, hook up the computers, set up your networking in each one and make sure you can see each one from the other. If you have XP or 2000 then the OS will tell you how fast the connection is.

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

Why have 10mps when its supposed to be 100? I just want to do this right the first time. Johnson Nguyen
Email - jnguyen@feltycc.net
AIM - TwstdVTECSol816

 

[jeffbouldin]

Then repulling the cable will be your only option.

 

[skip555]

how about cutting a hole in the wall directly above the jack in question and pull the wire up to it a Cover the existing hole with a blank plate mount the jack in the upper hole.

so you would have a blank plate on bottom ,jack on top wouldnt be the best looking thing but would give you the cable you need to terminate properly without rewiring

 

[daronwilson]

Hmmm, I'm confused:

Why have 10mps when its supposed to be 100? I just want to do this right the first time.

As I understand it, the guy has 4 runs of Cat5e for telephones to 4 rooms in the house. You already made the connections on the router end, and are going to put a router and cable modem there. When you got to the outlet end, there wasn't enough slack for you to reterminate the cat5e on a cat5e jack? What the heck is the guy going to do for phone wire? No phones in the house?

If you want to 'do this right the first time' like you said, leave the exising phone wires in tact so he can have telephones in 4 rooms. Pull new Cat5e data wiring from a central secure location where your router and cablemodem can be placed. Terminate both ends of the runs on 568A jacks and/or patch panel. Scan the installed wiring for compliance (this is part of doing it right the first time). Replace the faceplates with duplex faceplates for a phone jack and a data jack. Plug in the patch cables and you are set.

Taking exisiting Cat5e that is for telephone and sharing it for data is not doing it right. If the wire had been stripped back too far to terminate properly, then it wont be doing it right, you will need to get some slack or re-run the wiring.

This is very common because unless the house is custom built for someone, the object is to provide a functional house for as little money as possible to sell and make a profit. If the homeowner doesn't ask, or specify a particular installation, they will likely get whatever is inexpensive.

Now...all that said, if you are looking to DIY and get him going cheap, you could probably continue with your installation and give him 10 mbs it certainly wont be a problem with internet access.

Good Luck! It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[Bobg1]

Daron is correct.
And even if the jacket is stripped back, just make sure
you have the twist in the pairs maintained properly up to
the jacks and you should be just fine.
"DO NOT" put shrink tube over the wires, this can change
the characteristics of the cable and make it worse than
having the jacket cut back.

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

Originally posted by daronwilson
As I understand it, the guy has 4 runs of Cat5e for telephones to 4 rooms in the house. You already made the connections on the router end, and are going to put a router and cable modem there. When you got to the outlet end, there wasn't enough slack for you to reterminate the cat5e on a cat5e jack? What the heck is the guy going to do for phone wire? No phones in the house?

You are correct. He doesnt use a house phone. This may be the most simplest answer but, is it possible for me to pull the cable from the jack end so that the router end gets shorter? When I tried pulling the first time, it seemed like the cable was held onto something. Johnson Nguyen
Email - jnguyen@feltycc.net
AIM - TwstdVTECSol816

 

[daronwilson]

Well if properly installed, the cable would be secured at regular intervals (4-5 feet) and within 18" of the box. So, depending on how it was secured, it may not be possible.

It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com

 

[franklin97355]

If the cable was installed with the house it is probably attached in a way thet will prevent it from being pulled. I would terminate it on a cat5 jack and take what you can get or run new wire.

 

[TwstdVTECSol816]

To my understanding, the only way I can run new wire (with fish tape) is use the pre-existing one right? If there is another way, let me know. Johnson Nguyen
Email - jnguyen@feltycc.net
AIM - TwstdVTECSol816