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Help for VFP running on Linux
- Thread starter july22
- Start date
Mike Gagnon
Programmer
July
And according to Microsoft's EULA, running VFP on anything other than Windows is a violation.
Mike Gagnon
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ184-2483 first.
ReFox XI (www.mcrgsoftware.com)
And according to Microsoft's EULA, running VFP on anything other than Windows is a violation.
Mike Gagnon
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ184-2483 first.
ReFox XI (www.mcrgsoftware.com)
TamarGranor
Programmer
Not exactly true, Mike. AIUI, you can run the development environment on Linux, but not the runtime.
Tamar
Tamar
Mike Gagnon
Programmer
Perhaps, but I fails to see the point of developing on Linux for an application that will run on Windows.Tamar said:
Mike Gagnon
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ184-2483 first.
ReFox XI (www.mcrgsoftware.com)
A new Linux WINE version update, currently at 0.9.31, is released every few weeks or so.
Visual FoxPro works too, with some limitations, as of early 2003 with VFP 8.0. Biggest issue, at least in multi-user scenarios, appears to be file or record locking. Nothing posted there is more recent than 2003. The page states they're looking for a VFP maintainer there. Probably testers too.
Do an internet search engine search. I found these 2003 articles which seem to support statements made here that the developer VFP license is okay to use on Linux, just not compiled runtime applications. One document with many links seems to raise the question whether it is mainly the installers that can't be used on Linux systems.
I wonder whether these restrictions are affected by industry monopoly issues Microsoft has been dealing with for many years. Of course, I'm no legal eagle.
Visual FoxPro works too, with some limitations, as of early 2003 with VFP 8.0. Biggest issue, at least in multi-user scenarios, appears to be file or record locking. Nothing posted there is more recent than 2003. The page states they're looking for a VFP maintainer there. Probably testers too.
Do an internet search engine search. I found these 2003 articles which seem to support statements made here that the developer VFP license is okay to use on Linux, just not compiled runtime applications. One document with many links seems to raise the question whether it is mainly the installers that can't be used on Linux systems.
I wonder whether these restrictions are affected by industry monopoly issues Microsoft has been dealing with for many years. Of course, I'm no legal eagle.
Mike Gagnon
Programmer
dbMark
You comment may have applied in 2003. But according to article #3 of the EULA for VFP9 (I believe it started with VFP 8.0)
You may not:
* alter any copyright, trademark or patent notices in the Distributable Code;
* use Microsoft's name, logo or trademarks to market your programs;
* distribute any Distributable Code that runs on any platform other than the Windows platform; or
* modify or distribute the source code of any Distributable Code so that any part of it becomes subject to an Excluded License. An Excluded License is one that requires, as a condition of use, modification or distribution, that:
* the code be disclosed or distributed in source code form, or
* others have the right to modify it.
Mike Gagnon
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ184-2483 first.
ReFox XI (www.mcrgsoftware.com)
You comment may have applied in 2003. But according to article #3 of the EULA for VFP9 (I believe it started with VFP 8.0)
You may not:
* alter any copyright, trademark or patent notices in the Distributable Code;
* use Microsoft's name, logo or trademarks to market your programs;
* distribute any Distributable Code that runs on any platform other than the Windows platform; or
* modify or distribute the source code of any Distributable Code so that any part of it becomes subject to an Excluded License. An Excluded License is one that requires, as a condition of use, modification or distribution, that:
* the code be disclosed or distributed in source code form, or
* others have the right to modify it.
Mike Gagnon
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ184-2483 first.
ReFox XI (www.mcrgsoftware.com)
TamarGranor
Programmer
The bit you highlighted seems to exactly say what dbMark said. The limit is on distributable code, that is, runtime stuff.
Tamar
Tamar
Mike,
That can't be legal, it's nonsense, how could I possibly tell what operating systems my code *might* run on?
That is patently unreasonable, do I have to test my app to make sure it doesn't run on something other than Windows?
Madness I cry, sheer madness - it's just crazy talk!
Regards
Griff
Keep [Smile]ing
That can't be legal, it's nonsense, how could I possibly tell what operating systems my code *might* run on?
That is patently unreasonable, do I have to test my app to make sure it doesn't run on something other than Windows?
Madness I cry, sheer madness - it's just crazy talk!
Regards
Griff
Keep [Smile]ing
Mike Lewis
Programmer
Martin,
Exactly the same thought struck me when I read the bit that Mike had highlighted. De rigeur, all VFP apps run under Linux, therefore all VFP apps run on a "platform other than the Windows platform", therefore all VFP apps that you "distribute" (however that might be defined) will contravene the licence.
Obviously, this isn't what Microsoft intended. But it is sloppy wording.
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
Exactly the same thought struck me when I read the bit that Mike had highlighted. De rigeur, all VFP apps run under Linux, therefore all VFP apps run on a "platform other than the Windows platform", therefore all VFP apps that you "distribute" (however that might be defined) will contravene the licence.
Obviously, this isn't what Microsoft intended. But it is sloppy wording.
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
Mikem
Exactly.
It would be bad enough if it said 'designed to run on any platform other than Windows' at least that would show intent.
Very sloppy - sufficient to render the EULA unenforeceable? You never know.
Regards
Griff
Keep [Smile]ing
Exactly.
It would be bad enough if it said 'designed to run on any platform other than Windows' at least that would show intent.
Very sloppy - sufficient to render the EULA unenforeceable? You never know.
Regards
Griff
Keep [Smile]ing
Mike Lewis
Programmer
Martin,
Actually, I firmly believe that all these EULA so-called agreements are legally unenforceable. But let's not get started on that.
For an agreement to be enforceable by a court, it has to have been freely entered into by both parties before the act. In practice,that rarely happens. In fact, if I buy a copy of Visual FoxPro from PC World, there isn't even a contractual relationship between me and Microsoft. But let's not get started on that.
Of course, that doesn't invalidates Microsoft's legal right to their intellectual property. But that's a separate issue.
Let's not get started on that.
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
Actually, I firmly believe that all these EULA so-called agreements are legally unenforceable. But let's not get started on that.
For an agreement to be enforceable by a court, it has to have been freely entered into by both parties before the act. In practice,that rarely happens. In fact, if I buy a copy of Visual FoxPro from PC World, there isn't even a contractual relationship between me and Microsoft. But let's not get started on that.
Of course, that doesn't invalidates Microsoft's legal right to their intellectual property. But that's a separate issue.
Let's not get started on that.
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
Mike Gagnon
Programmer
And the original poster is asking that very question, unless I was reading it wrong.Tamar said:
When you install VFP, normally you would have to click "Yes I aggree" to the EULA, I think.MikeLewis said:
Mike Gagnon
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ184-2483 first.
ReFox XI (www.mcrgsoftware.com)
Mike Lewis
Programmer
Mike,
You certainly do.
The point is that the "I agree" click is too late. It happens after you have concluded the contract to purchase the software. For an agreement to be enforceable, it has to be freely entered into by both parties before the contract takes place. And that means that both parties must be aware of, and understand, the terms at that time.
If one side could impose contract terms after the contract is concluded, the other side would have to have some recourse in the event that they don't agree with those terms. The "I agree" click doesn't give you that.
I know that, if you don't click "I agree", you can return the product for a refund. But that's not a proper recourse. The point is that the other party (the software vendor) has already contracted with you to provide a state-of-the-art high-performance database development system, and you are entitled to enjoy the benefit of that system. You might rightly feel that a mere refund of the purchase price isn't sufficient compensation for the fact that you don't have the use of the development system after all.
There's also the point that the act of clicking an "I agree" button with a mouse doesn't provide any evidence that can be used in a court. How can anyone proved who actually clicked the button? It might have been the office cleaner, for all anyone knows.
Note that I'm not for one moment saying that we should ignore any perfectly reasonable terms contained in the EULAs of the software we use. I'm just saying that, as far as I know, these contracts have never been tested in the courts (at least, not in any US state, Canadian province or EU country),and might well not hold up if they were.
Sorry ... maybe this isn't the place for this sort of discussion (but I did warn you not to get me started on it <g>).
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
You certainly do.
The point is that the "I agree" click is too late. It happens after you have concluded the contract to purchase the software. For an agreement to be enforceable, it has to be freely entered into by both parties before the contract takes place. And that means that both parties must be aware of, and understand, the terms at that time.
If one side could impose contract terms after the contract is concluded, the other side would have to have some recourse in the event that they don't agree with those terms. The "I agree" click doesn't give you that.
I know that, if you don't click "I agree", you can return the product for a refund. But that's not a proper recourse. The point is that the other party (the software vendor) has already contracted with you to provide a state-of-the-art high-performance database development system, and you are entitled to enjoy the benefit of that system. You might rightly feel that a mere refund of the purchase price isn't sufficient compensation for the fact that you don't have the use of the development system after all.
There's also the point that the act of clicking an "I agree" button with a mouse doesn't provide any evidence that can be used in a court. How can anyone proved who actually clicked the button? It might have been the office cleaner, for all anyone knows.
Note that I'm not for one moment saying that we should ignore any perfectly reasonable terms contained in the EULAs of the software we use. I'm just saying that, as far as I know, these contracts have never been tested in the courts (at least, not in any US state, Canadian province or EU country),and might well not hold up if they were.
Sorry ... maybe this isn't the place for this sort of discussion (but I did warn you not to get me started on it <g>).
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
How can anyone proved who actually clicked the button? It might have been the office cleaner, for all anyone knows.
- Mike Lewis
SO what if you call the cleaner and ask him to click and continue with installation with every software you install. My God !
I am just making a lighter point and no intention to ridicule you, Mike (or anyone for that matter).
Apart from wordings, I respect intentions more. Anyway I do not have any abilities to argue legal points, in depth.
As for Linux, just out of interest, I tried on the latest Fedora Core (just a cool easy installation) and Udumbu (debian KDE - I faced problem with non KDE probably because wine issues.) with latest Wine from their repositories using the linux 'add software application' route. After installing Linux and using SAMBA to connect to XP computer, where I keep my VFP developments, using the network share on the installation sets directory I keep for VFP (The install executables I distribute for end users), I installed some of them. They all created a desktop icon and worked perfectly. They created the database and worked resonably good. I felt even the screens were slightly faster, though I cannot immediately say for sure, if these were only an illusion. No testing was done further, since I have no intention to go further on that with so many legal issues. I always want to be on the safer side without infringing on legal rights.
In some installations tried I had issues related to some fonts I used in VFP. However, these fonts can be downloaded from resources available and sorts out the linux issues.
All these were done for knowledge sake. So far so good.
But I have no intention to distribute or even develop VFP applications on linux, since I am comfortable with XP interface. I only tried for knowledge sake and information provided here for whatever worth.
I do use linux file servers for my clients, since the file servers just stay up and running for ever until the hardware dies down, without even a single shut down required, in some cases. This happened with atleast a couple of my clients who told me after over 5 years when the next upgrade was done, that they never looked at the server cabin since my last visit several years back!. And no virus ! Often clients think I have done a super job with no bugs in applications or no failure of server.. you can imagine the importance they give and the premium i get (Part of the credit goes to FoxPro and Linux for server). The clients keep coming back to me after 5/6 years for newer requiremets.
And for those linux lovers.. my advice will be to use MySql or such alternative, rather than VFP and keep away from legal issues. If you are a VFP lover, stay with windows platform for clients. If anyone want to grow in size or get into prominance, besides the self satisfaction of clean mind with no legal complications, one important thing is to remain legal compliant and never think of short cuts. If there is doubt on these issues, be on the safe side.
Just my views...
ramani
____________________________________________
ramani - (Subramanian.G)
- Mike Lewis
SO what if you call the cleaner and ask him to click and continue with installation with every software you install. My God !
I am just making a lighter point and no intention to ridicule you, Mike (or anyone for that matter).
Apart from wordings, I respect intentions more. Anyway I do not have any abilities to argue legal points, in depth.
As for Linux, just out of interest, I tried on the latest Fedora Core (just a cool easy installation) and Udumbu (debian KDE - I faced problem with non KDE probably because wine issues.) with latest Wine from their repositories using the linux 'add software application' route. After installing Linux and using SAMBA to connect to XP computer, where I keep my VFP developments, using the network share on the installation sets directory I keep for VFP (The install executables I distribute for end users), I installed some of them. They all created a desktop icon and worked perfectly. They created the database and worked resonably good. I felt even the screens were slightly faster, though I cannot immediately say for sure, if these were only an illusion. No testing was done further, since I have no intention to go further on that with so many legal issues. I always want to be on the safer side without infringing on legal rights.
In some installations tried I had issues related to some fonts I used in VFP. However, these fonts can be downloaded from resources available and sorts out the linux issues.
All these were done for knowledge sake. So far so good.
But I have no intention to distribute or even develop VFP applications on linux, since I am comfortable with XP interface. I only tried for knowledge sake and information provided here for whatever worth.
I do use linux file servers for my clients, since the file servers just stay up and running for ever until the hardware dies down, without even a single shut down required, in some cases. This happened with atleast a couple of my clients who told me after over 5 years when the next upgrade was done, that they never looked at the server cabin since my last visit several years back!. And no virus ! Often clients think I have done a super job with no bugs in applications or no failure of server.. you can imagine the importance they give and the premium i get (Part of the credit goes to FoxPro and Linux for server). The clients keep coming back to me after 5/6 years for newer requiremets.
And for those linux lovers.. my advice will be to use MySql or such alternative, rather than VFP and keep away from legal issues. If you are a VFP lover, stay with windows platform for clients. If anyone want to grow in size or get into prominance, besides the self satisfaction of clean mind with no legal complications, one important thing is to remain legal compliant and never think of short cuts. If there is doubt on these issues, be on the safe side.
Just my views...
ramani
____________________________________________
ramani - (Subramanian.G)
robsuttonjr
MIS
I wish there was a light version of FoxPro which ran on Windows CE...
Regards,
Rob
Regards,
Rob
Mike Lewis
Programmer
Rob,
There is. FoxPro for DOS, running under the DOS emulator in Windows CE.
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
There is. FoxPro for DOS, running under the DOS emulator in Windows CE.
Mike
__________________________________
Mike Lewis (Edinburgh, Scotland)
My Visual FoxPro site: www.ml-consult.co.uk
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