HBO ROME season 2 language question 2

[Ladyazh]

Thanks HBO second season of ROME is on!!!
I love this epic and I think there is nothing quite like that was ever made. I love all of it but question is did they use a lot of F words back then? If they did what would be ancient word they actually used in place of modern F word? Just curious.

 

[SaishuHeiki]

Much like Deadwood, they use modern curse words as a way of conveying the feeling and emotion of what the character is saying.

The modern curse words did not exist, or had both different connontations and denotations at the time. They use them because it would be terribly confusing if they used the actual words of the period.

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It is easier for an intellegent person to "play dumb" than for an unintellegent person to "play smart". - gbaughma

 

[sleipnir214]

Have you seen the Wikipedia article on Latin profanity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity

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[SaishuHeiki]

Exactly.

You would need a Latin primer just to get through an episode.

If I need a desk reference to enjoy an HBO series, I am concidering that one of the signs of the Apocolypse.



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It is easier for an intellegent person to "play dumb" than for an unintellegent person to "play smart". - gbaughma

 

[sleipnir214]

You would need a Latin primer just to get through an episode.

I don't necessarily agree.

Look at the science fiction serices "Firefly". All the curse words used in the show were variants of English (e.g. "they're trying to steal my gorram ship") or were directly imported from Chinese. Viewers of the show had no problems getting the gist of the dialog.

Curse words exist, in my opinion, to transmit emotion. If the two actors are good enough at emoting for the camera, it won't matter if they're shouting complete gibberish at one another -- you'll get the drift.

I once saw on the streets of Hong Kong an argument in Chinese[sup]*[/sup] between a man and a woman. I didn't speak their language, but from the passion expressed and the body language, it was obvious even to my 11-year-old self that they were likely boyfriend and girlfriend and he had just done some "straw that broke the camel's back" action that pissed her completely off. (If I had to guess, he was late for something important. Again.)


But just imagine the actors in "Rome" spitting out something like "Futuo!" at the appropriate time. You'd get the drift. I think HBO puts the f-word in its productions simply because that's what differentiates them from the rest of U.S. television production.



[sup]* I don't know the specific language, so I'm deliberately using the generic an inaccurate term "Chinese"[/sup]


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[columb]

You don't need to go back as far as 'Rome' to hit this problem of interpretation. One of the problems with Shakespear is that the language has changed so much in 400 years that large chunks are unitelligible to the average high school student whereas it was written to be understood by the mob in the pit.

But it's not just language in the strict sense of the word. Whereas the major themes are eternal and cross cultural, the details soon become difficult to comprehend. In 'Keep the Aspidistra Flying', which isn't that old (30s?), the hero is sacked from a pretty menial job for having been involved in a fight. His boss is reluctant but feels he is forced to do so. Here and now, less than a century later, I find that attitude hard to comprehend. Whilst I would lose my job for fraud or dishonesty no-one would raise an eyebrow for being 'bound over to keep the peace', and I have a position which involves significant responsibility.

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Columb Healy

 

[Welshbird]

Columb - I find that odd. I've seen many Shakespearian plays (being lucky enough to live not too far from the Globe , and I've never found the language difficult to understand. I started going (not to the Globe - it was too far then) in my teens, and loved it instantly.

But then, I've always found Dickens one of the most humourous authors. It's the way he rambles off the point - For example, at the beginning of 'A Christmas Carol' - he's only trying to tell us that Marley is dead, but says this:

Marley was dead, to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. Scrooge signed it. And Scrooge's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to.

Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

Mind! I don’t mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country’s done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

See what I mean? Hilarious.

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]

 

[columb]

Don't get me wrong, I love Shakespeare, I was lucky enough to have parents who dragged me to the RSC, both at Stratford and at the Aldwich, at least twice a year. I can still remember a pre Avengers Diana Rigg in the Dream which I must have seen back in the 60's.

However, without wishing to sound like too much of an intelectual snob, you and I have both a love of language and a certain amount of intelegence; otherwise we wouldn't be in this forum. We are therefore prepared to put in the effort needed to concentrate hard enough to get past the archaic language to reap the rewards of one of the greatest playwrights ever. However, if you offer Shakespeare to Joe Public, or the average high school student, the majority either can't or won't make that effort. My contrast was that back in the late 1500's Joe Public was lapping up Shakespeare because the language he used was theirs.

Back to the main point of Ladyazh's original post, a playwright doing historical drama has to write in the language of today to be inteligible. The skill is using modern language but keeping the period feel (and the true emotions).

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Columb Healy

 

[sleipnir214]

Although to a virgin modern ear, Shakespeare sounds quite foreign, I don't think it takes that much mental effort to learn to decode Shakespeare. Certainly anyone who listens regularly to rap music could be readily shown the poetry and rhythm within the language of Shakespeare's works.


After he starred in a movie version of "Hamlet", Mel Gibson went to Los Angeles public high schools, talking about Shakespeare and showing the movie. I saw a video of one of his sessions, where a student asked about the difficulty of understanding Shakespeare's language. He used the example of the dialog between the Ghost and Hamlet in Act I, Scene 5, where the Ghost asks Hamlet to remember him.

Gibon's answer included a discussion of the relationship between the child and the ghost of the father, dynastic considerations, etc. And then he said, "You tell me which is a better answer to the request: 'Okay, Dad. I'll remember' or 'And thy commandment all alone shall live
Within the book and volume of my brain, Unmix'd with baser matter: yes, by heaven!'" As he recited the line from Shakespeare, Gibson's face and eyes lit up with the power and passion of the text, and you could see part of that passion being shared by the students.

The student agreed that Shakespeare's lines were better.


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[ascotta]

I wonder if dead as in dead as a door nail means it is "dead flush" ie under the timber.

I would often nail things dead. Again so the nail was below the surface.......

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Cheers
Scott

 

[p5wizard]

doornail:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dea1.htm

 

[Welshbird]

Interesting....

Fee

The question should be [red]Is it worth trying to do?[/red] not [blue] Can it be done?[/blue]