Getting Started - A newbie questions

[southbeach]

Hello!

I have never worked with .NET and I am ready to get started with it. Some time ago, I found myself on this very spot but dropped it and went back to the program I have used since late '80s (don't ask!).

I bought Visual Studio.net Enterprise Architect Version 2003 (very long time ago ...) and wonder if this is any good today.

I have a Win 2K3 server where I run apache, php and MySQL. I do not want to disrupt this setup so I figure I may need to get a 2nd PC with XP on it where I can run IIS and whatever else .NET seems to need for it to work.

I guess that what I am looking for is answers to:
a) Is the visual studio v. 2003 I have any good today?
b) Do I need to have visual studio to develop .net?
b1) If not, what are my alternatives? Pros - cons ...
c) Can .NET work with Apache in lieu of IIS?
d) Aside from this forum, any other site where good tutorials can be found?

These should get me started. Thank you all in advance for your assistance!

Regards,


--
SouthBeach

http://www.fpgroups.com

The good thing about not knowing is the opportunity to learn - Yours truly, 2008.

 

[jmeckley]

you don't need a totally new box. you could make your current box dual boot, if it has the power.

as for .net
VS2003 runs the .net 1.1 framework. the current framework is 3.5 which is backwards compatible to 2.0. 1.1 to 2.0 has breaking changes. if you are going to enter .net development get a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Professional. You shouldn't need the uber top of the line deluxe version. You could even start with VS 2008 Express which is a free download.

You do not need VS to write/compile .net, but it makes life so much more easier. with note pad. the .net framework and msbuild (included) or nant you can compile the code into a working assembly/executable.

I'm 90% sure .net can run under apache using Mono, an open source project to get .net running on non-Windows OS.

the best book for learning .net is C# via CLR. it's the technical ins and outs. but anything you want to know about c# is in there. they also publish it for VB <ick>

Blogs:
LosTechies.com
CodeBetter.com
Ayende.com
jpboodhoo.com

try to stay away from drag/drop development. this will only encourage poor programming habits. Assuming web development stay away from webforms. research MS MVC, FUBU MVC or Castle Monorail instead.

some common open source tools for .net
NHibernate (ORM)
Active Record (ORM)
MbUnit (Unit Testing)
nUnit (Unit Testing)
log4net (logging)
Structure.Map (IoC)
Castle Windsor (IoC)
Spring.Net (IoC)
FUBU MVC (mvc web framework)
MS MVC (mvc web framework)
Monorail (mvc web framework)
Rhino Tools (supplements to Castle stack, data access, messaging, ETL, security...)
developwithpassion.bdd (supplement to unit testing frameworks like mbunit)
sqlite (in memory database, great for testing, plays well with NHibernate and Active Record)

$ 3rd party tools for .net
JetBrains dotTrace (preformance profiling, awesome)
JetBrains Resharper (VS plugin, I can't code without it. doesn't work with VS Express)
NDepend (code profiling, haven't used, but i hear great things)

Jason Meckley
Programmer
Specialty Bakers, Inc.

 

[jbenson001]

they also publish it for VB <ick>

I say the same for c#

 

[jmeckley]

LOL

Jason Meckley
Programmer
Specialty Bakers, Inc.

 

[MystiqueOfLife]

a) You will want at least VS 2005 for 2.0 framework development, but 2008 is the best choice being backward compatible. A lot of people still develop in 2.0, almost no one develops for 1.1 today, most have upgraded.

b) You do not need VS to write / compile although it makes life easier and development quicker. Some people use note pad, but time is money.

c) I believe I read in can, but never tried it.

d)

http://www.asp.net

and you should subscribe to asp.net pro magazine or msdn.

You should also grab the ASP.NET AJAX Control Toolkit.

http://www.asp.net/ajax/ajaxcontroltoolkit/samples/

Makes working with Ajax easy.

As for drag and drop, most schools teach you to use this method and their argument is basically don't go against the grain. It's like HTML coding, know how to work with it and write it, but use Dreamweaver to build your pages.

Why, because time is money and most of the controls add a huge amount of functionality that would take an absurd amount of time for you to develop.

That's why developers use control suites like Component One, Telerik, Infragistics to make a few. Invest in a suite and you can add way more functionality to your apps for a small investment ($1000 or so depending on what options you purchase).

Hope this helps. Cheers!

----

Remi
Free Message Forums

http://www.messageforums.com

http://www.empellex.com

 

[Turkbear]

Hi,
In addition these sites have lots of good help and sample code:

http://www.w3schools.com/ASPNET/default.asp

http://aspnet.4guysfromrolla.com/2.0/

To Paraphrase:"The Help you get is proportional to the Help you give.."

 

[jmeckley]

d)

http://www.asp.net

and you should subscribe to asp.net pro magazine or msdn.

You should also grab the ASP.NET AJAX Control Toolkit.

http://www.asp.net/ajax/ajaxcontroltoolkit/samples/

Makes working with Ajax easy.

As for drag and drop, most schools teach you to use this method and their argument is basically don't go against the grain. It's like HTML coding, know how to work with it and write it, but use Dreamweaver to build your pages.

I totally disagree.
1. asp.net teaches you how to get a page up and running in minutes. it does not teach you quality programming skills like separation of concerns, logical layering of code/objects. Proper managements of database access.

MS AJAX is MS attempt to make webforms ajax friendly. ajax is a client side concern which any 3rd party client library can do quite well with low overhead.

WebForms and server controls take a simple concept like HTML and make it complicated with viewstate, postbacks, heavily nested tables. HTML is very simple and does not require abstraction.

I would encourage you to avoid webforms all together and learn how to use one of the popular MVC frameworks. FUBU MVC, MS MVC, Monorail.
Reason I prefer this over webforms.
1. promotes separation of concerns
2. promotes testability
3. easier to manipulate to my needs

Jason Meckley
Programmer
Specialty Bakers, Inc.

 

[DavidKuhn0422]

I agree with Jason about using AJAX. I think that you need to understand how .NET works. Also, i think that they need to learn WebForms first to learn possible downfalls of .NET and a lot of people don't use other frameworks for this. Once you learn how .NET really works, then you can look more into frameworks to make your life easier. I do agree with Jason that these can be more useful than WebForms, but i don't think that is a good place to start.

Its the same way that i learned HTML. I developed using Notepad, then (years later) used Dreamweaver to make my life easier. You need to be able to understand the underlying technologies.

Look into Test Driven Development.

 

[southbeach]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply ... I have read your replies a couple of times as I continue to dig around for information.

I checked ebay for VS and found 2008 for about $140. I see that there are other that cost close $10K (to rich for me).

I am trying to get a low cost copy of CLR via C# and as soon as the opportunity presents itself, I will grab it.

Again, thank you all for your time and valuable input!

Regards,



--
SouthBeach

http://www.fpgroups.com

The good thing about not knowing is the opportunity to learn - Yours truly, 2008.

 

[DavidKuhn0422]

I would look into getting one of the FREE express versions from microsoft, not the greatest with all the extra toys, but very good for learning. Best of all, it costs no money.

http://www.microsoft.com/Express/