Four times more

[stackdump]

I've had a miscommunication with a vendor today that misinterpreted 'four times more'. What I wanted was five times last months quantity (which was 3), so I should end up with 15. Anyway, for whatever reason I asked for 'four times more' than last month, but ended up with 12 in the lobby with me scurrying around looking for the others.

To me, 'four times more' means I want the original amount plus an additional amount. The additional amount being equal to the original amount times four. So five times in total, right?

Was I right or wrong? If I had said 'four times as much', would that have meant four or five times? You can imagine how the conversation went on the phone later in the day. The missing three are now on the way, but having rattled the vendors brain, I'm now filled with doubt.

 

[KornGeek]

This should probably have been asked in STC. After all, isn't that a math(s) forum? ;-)

Based on what you said, you are mathematically correct. If last month, I ordered 3 units, and this time I say that I want 4 times more, than I have asked for 15 units.

However, seeing as how you asked this question in MAI, we should also look at this from a linguistic perspective. It is easy to see how a person could easily get confused between "4 times more" and "4 times as many". A subtle difference in the wording can result in an important difference in the meaning (in this case, 3 units).

You should have worded it more clearly in the beginning. The vendor should have clarified the number to make sure you were both on the same page. Both are easily forgivable mistakes. Live and learn.

 

[SantaMufasa]

Stack,

I can see your dilemma, but do you remember the movie "The Sting" (Robert Redford, Paul Newman, Robert Shaw)? The key to the sting hinged upon the misinterpretation of a simple betting instruction: "Place it on <some horse>"...Shaw "placed" the bet on the horse to win, but the sting was that after Shaw placed the bet, Redford told Shaw that his instructions were to "Bet on <some horse> to place" rather than to win.

So, the lesson here for you (and the rest of us) is not to leave anything up to ambiguity. You can tell the rep that you need "four times more", but also confirm, "so that means I need you to send me a total of 15."

This practice will keep you from being the victim of an inadvertent Sting.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[GPOTony]

I went into a chipper and asked for a cod and chips twice.
The guy behind the counter said "I heard you the first time."

(probably only makes sense in Ireland and UK)

 

[SantaMufasa]

I went into a chipper and asked for a cod and chips twice.

Tony, I know that if you have to explain it, it isn't funny anymore, but in hopes that I can understand it one day, could you please clarify: Did you say:

Cod and chips, twice

...or did you say

Cod and chips.



(then, after a 20-second period of silence...)Yo, mate, cod and chips, please.

Sorry for my not being there...I love good cod and chips...twice even. <grin>

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[AnotherHiggins]

Consider this:

You read an article with the headline: "Women Four Times More Likely Than Men To Have Cooties". The article goes on to say that 10% of men have cooties. What percentage of women have cooties? 40% or 50%?

I'd say that the article is trying to convey that 40% of women have cooties.

Do you disagree, stackdump or KornGeek?

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[KenCunningham]

Dave - 'cod and chips twice' I assume, ie two portions. It's a bit of a 'Tommy Cooperism', such as

“So I went to the dentist. He said "Say Aaah." I said "Why?" He said "My dog's died.'

I want to be good, is that not enough?

 

[karluk]

I can understand the reasoning behind interpreting "four times more" as fifteen, but I'm afraid that, if I were your vendor, I also would have sent you twelve. To me the moral is that the English language tends to be ambiguous and, if you want fifteen, you should say "send me fifteen" when you place your order.

 

[Rofeu]

Anotherhiggins,

the 4x more in your example doesn't refer to the same group, therefore it is 40% for the group that it does refer to. However, the total of the percentages does make up 50%. Similarly, in the original example, it would also be 12 and 3, but as they refer to the same you can add them up to 15.

Or at least, that's what I'd make of it.

Cheers,

Roel

 

[RodKnowlton]

Rofeu,

In the original, "give me four times more than last month" refers to two groups as well. The 12 are what the vendor is to give him, and the 3 are what the gave him last month.

I can't place my finger on why, but something in my subconscious keeps balking at the phrase "four times more". Is it even grammatically correct English?

Seems like "four times" would need to modify something enumerable, such as "as many".

If the "as many" is implied, then we can make it explicit and get "give me four times as many more than last month" which would be stackdump's meaning.

Is "as many" implied, though? Or rather, should it be understood by the vendor that it is?

- Rod


IBM Certified Advanced Technical Expert pSeries and AIX 5L
CompTIA Linux+
CompTIA Security+

Wish you could view posts with a fixed font? Got Firefox & Greasemonkey? Give yourself the option.

 

[AnotherHiggins]

Maybe my brain's broken, but if I was the vendor and the request had been, "four times as many," I still would have sent twelve.

I am reminded of the "On the count of three" argument from the Lethal Weapon movies. ("Is it onthree, or 1, 2, 3 then go?").

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[SantaMufasa]

1 time as many = 3
2 times as many (i.e., twice as many) = 6
3 times as many = 9
4 times as many = 12
5 times as many = 15

15 = no ambiguity!

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[stackdump]

I'm glad to see others can see my dilemma.

Let me throw another log onto the fire here. If a runner was doing circuits of a track (in a 2000m, five lap race), after the first lap they shouted to me "I've done one lap is that enough?", I would shout back "no, four times more" i.e. I wouldn't reply "four times as many".

So maybe... the "more" versus the "as many" depends on the question that was asked? I also hear "as much" used.

So these three must all be equivalent?
- Four times more
- Four times as many
- Four times as much

But none are equivalent to "four times".

 

[AnotherHiggins]

> I would shout back "no, four times more"

I'd say, "four more times" (or, more probably, "four more laps").

I suspect that in the lap-running example, "four times more" is a different sentence construction than you used when ordering a number of products.

Like in the running example you're saying "four more times around the track" but rearranging the words, whereas in the other examples you are specifying a multiple of a known quantity. Hmm....

I'd like to hear CC chime in on this one.

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[SantaMufasa]

So these three must all be equivalent?
- Four times more
- Four times as many
- Four times as much

From the perspective of intent, you may want them to be the same. And depending upon the meanings of the words you used, they are arguably similar or parallel in meaning.


But actually, technically, linquistically...No...they are not equivalent, for these reasons:

In your uses, above, times is can represent two different meanings...

a) Occurrences (using John's [AnotherHiggins's] unambiguous wording, "Four times more")

b) Multiples ("Four times as many" and "Four times as much")

Your wording, as John pointed out, is ambiguous (see below).

Secondly, many and more are certainly not equivalent:

many: number or count
more: quantity, amount, extent, or degree

So, from a linguistic perspective, the three are certainly not interchangeable phrases.

But none are equivalent to "four times".

"four times": total occurrences, circuits.

"four times more": (ambiguous) a) additional occurrences, circuits. b) multiples of previous totals.
"four more times": (unambiguous) additional occurrences, circuits.


Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[ESquared]

This thing has always bothered me. I've thought about it at least 3 times in the last month, before reading this thread.

In my mind, "four times more" is too ambiguous. It's perfectly clear to me it means what stackdump intended—if I had said it. But since most people aren't as deliberate and nitpicky about language as I am, for others interpreting me or me interpreting others, it's unclear whether it means multiplication or addition, because more says to add, but times says to multiply. So I have decided that (for me anyway) the best thing is to just stick with "five times as much" or "five times as many." Or better, "five times the previous quantity [or other specific]."

400 percent more, on the other hand, should be unambiguous, and result in 5 times the original amount. But I could be wrong in my entire analysis, here.

Another one that gets me all the time is "Save up to 50% off ... ." You can't "save off" something. You can "save up to 50% on" the purchase of something. Or you can "receive up to 50% off" the price of something. Gar! Get some language skills, please!?!

 

[xwb]

If the profit was £10K and you increased it to £100K, I'd say the profit was increased by 900% but I've seen the same figures being quoted as 1000% until I questioned them.

To be sure I normally specify the exact amount. I try not to use terms which I often misinterpret.

For instance, if today is Sunday, when is next Monday? I'd assume it is tomorrow because it is the next one but to some people, that is this Monday. The next Monday is in 8 days' time. In cases like these, I just give the date.

 

[stackdump]

Actually on percentages...

If I increased a figure (let's say 1) by 300% is it;

(a) 3 (3 x 1)
(b) 4 (3 x 1 + 1)
(c) 8 (1 x 2 x 2 x 2)

 

[SantaMufasa]

Stackdump,

I'm presuming (perhaps incorrectly) that you are trying to show an error in xwb's logic. Actually, his logic is sound:

If the baseline profit is £10K, then here are some figures that support xwb's reasoning:

If profit remains £10K, the there is a 0% increase.
If profit increases by £10K to £20K, then there is a 100% increase.
If profit increases by £20K to £30K, then there is a 200% increase.
...and so on...
If profit increases by £90K to £100K, then there is a 900% increase.


Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[stackdump]

I'm not trying to show an error in anyone's logic, only to determine what people understand by percentages (which is another area of ambiguity and one which I suspect I dont understand).

If I increased a figure (let's say 1) by 300% is it;
(a) 3 (3 x 1)
(b) 4 (3 x 1 + 1)
(c) 8 (1 x 2 x 2 x 2)

So the correct answer is (b)?