Forget gender, what about age bias in IT? 8

[rosieb]

OK, so gender bias has generated a lot of discussion, but what about age bias?

In the UK, at least, age discrimination is still legal.

According to the agencies (at least they’re honest), at my advanced age, I am:

Incapable of learning
Unable to accept change
Unable to relate to younger co-workers
Unadventurous

(This, notwithstanding that I’ve just completed a masters degree, taken up dog-sledding and travelled independently round Lebanon, Vietnam & Laos.)

Apparently, anyone over 30 is past it in an IT environment!

I’ve been refused interviews where I know I was eminently qualified for the job. (age/gender/combination of the two?)

Maybe I should just retire to a dark corner and get on with my knitting.

(Not bitter, I eventually got a great job in local government where the recruitment process is pretty much bias-free.)

Any thoughts?

Rosie

 

[BJCooperIT]

Bruce,
Congratulations. Nice to know that there is still work out there for we "mature" folks.

How ironic that:

1. When you are young and first starting out in IT you face
the disadvantage that you don't have enough experience

2. When you are older and looking for IT work you face
the disadvantage that you have too much experience



[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[jrbarnett]

BJCooperIT,

I was turned down for a Senior Access Developer post earlier this year - because I have too much experience in Access. I am 26 years old and have used it extensively for 4 years.
If I am over the hill now, what hope is there for me???

John

 

[ANFPS26]

"Too much experience" or "overqualified" are just "buzz" words to keep salaries low. As soon as they find out how much you made at your last job or how much you require, you fall into these two catagories.

Jim

 

[BJCooperIT]

jrbarnett,

<tongue-in-cheek>
Have you considered applying for Bill Gates' job? Seems to me, he must be one of the over-the-hill-gang by now.
</tongue-in-cheek>

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[aixmurderer]

SQLsister & Bruce - Those tips of yours I am going to try. At 45 I have been looking for something else now for around 2 years, never got past the agency stage interviews yet.

I guess the general feeling out there is that older people are less dynamic and unwilling to change, it's a real pity that a lot of good people (subjective of course!) are overseen due to this perspective.

IBM Certified Confused - MQSeries
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MS Certified Windblows Rebooter

 

[machteld]

Hi all,

Just a little experience 'from the other side'... A while ago I had a discussion with a projectleader who's way of working I cannot and will never appreciate (he's the kind of making plans with mgmt behind closed doors and then let the 'plebs' know what they have to do, no teamwork involved (please, don' think for yourself, It'll only cost you precious project-time!...just do as you're told, please), he is making up all the plans no matter how useless...
So I took him to talk to my manager about this 'attitude':

his anwers: 'I've been in this business for over 18 years, so why should you doubt me??? (i.e shut up, who do think you are...), Me, with 'just' a humble 10 years of experience, just thought it would be better to stay quiet and not respond to this ridiculous argument... I did not even respondd the obviuos 'yeah, but i do this for xx years'... I just sat there looking at him coming with something better than that...

Luckily my manager joked about it and said something like 'Well, if you have been a project leader for 18 years now.....'

&quot;No, no, I am not... just mean 'I've been &quot;in the bussiness' for 18 years...&quot; blablabla.
He still has to proove his first succes-project at our company, so these 18 years, spent at whatever, doesn't mean a thing to anyone yet!

Another side of the story, that's all, not biased or whatever, just wanted to give another impression also...

 

[LesleyW]

Cajun, you ask me &quot;LesleyW - Is that an example of gender bias&quot;. Interesting question which gave me pause for thought.

I still be impressed if a man told me he had done all that. Yes, I'd think &quot;Wow what a man&quot;.

But being 100% honest with myself, I'm marginally more impressed with a woman achieving so much, particularly the independent travelling. Further I confess, (digging myself a big hole here) Rosie admits to being some &quot;advanced age&quot;, so I guess she is not in her twenties. Again, slightly more impressed with an older woman doing these things.

Fact is that I believe we are *all* prejudiced to some extent, over something. Most of us over gender and age, some over race or religion, body shape, dis/ability - depending on our culture, education and life experiences. How we challenge and overcome our own prejudices is the mark of our humanity.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Rosie admits to being some &quot;advanced age&quot;, so I guess she is not in her twenties&quot;

Age > 20 ==> Advanced age. Ouch.

I agree with completely that to some extent we all have our prejudices and it's a constant struggle to keep open-minded and not be controlled by such feelings.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[SQLSister]

Instead of prejudices, I prefer to think of these things as limits. The limits we put on ourselves and the limits we project onto other people (in the main part, derived from the limits we put on ourselves). I think this is especially true when you hear about someone in your own group (age, race, sex, religion or some combination thereof) who does something that you find impressive. When we hear about people doing things like traveling alone or dogsledding, often the first thought is: &quot;I could never do that.&quot; Usually this is limit you have placed on yourself, often fairly unconciously. Believe me, no one places more limits on you than you do yourself.

The reason why I prefer to think of these as limits rather than prejudices is because prejudices strike people as unchangeable. But limits, as we all know from Math class, can be changed resulting in a new answer. Suddenly you change from &quot;I could never&quot; to &quot;Do I want to?&quot; which is a place that allows the growth the first statement does not.

And the answer isn't always yes (I still have no burning desire to go dog-sledding, for instance), but it isn't always no either. And when you realize that something new is possible, then you can move the limits and do new things and change who you are in the process.

I've done things to challenge my self-imposed limits all my life. The response I have from other people is often anger because my actions made them see the limits they imposed on themselves were false. It's easy to say to yourself, &quot;No I can't leave this job I hate because the benefits and salary are too good. Nobody would give that up.&quot; But then when someone else does leave, it challenges that limit and the person is angry because their premise is proven false and they don't want to leave their comfort zone even if they aren't happy there.

 

[LesleyW]

Well put SQL Sister...

What a woman

 

[rosieb]

not in her twenties regrettably true. 40>age<50. Hardly in my dotage.

Increasingly, I find myself challenging the self-imposed limits with a &quot;Why not?&quot; and realizing that there is often no real reason. What I have discovered is that there are things I am good at, or enjoy, that I'd never realised I was capable of. I've also discovered things I'm useless at. Either way, I value the experience.

I do resent the assumption that my age makes me inflexible or incapable of learning. Obviously, not an assumption which strikes sympathy here, but which does affect a lot of people in the industry.

Legislation will soon make this illegal in the UK, but it takes much longer to change attitudes.

I am, of course, totally open minded. (I wish! But I do try.)

Rosie

 

[jonojacker]

Cuts both ways for age bias. Youngsters starting fresh are considered inexperienced, but are creative, motivated and easy to mold with less attachments.

Older persons are stereotyped too, as being demanding, too set in their ways and less industrious (i.e. unable to make them work much more because of age/family/children).

In this job market, experience will always win out as employers try to get the most bang for their buck.

My .02

Jono

http://www.compcerts.com

 

[machteld]

True about the 'both ways', yes!

Not sure this is the right thread to bring it up but; we're in the middle or a reorganisation, and one of the agreements is that people who work for the company longer have some more 'rights'. Very fair, but also means the new and young people are more likely to go (not only because of this agreement, ofcourse, but they have better changes of a new job, so some of them will leave in free will, because you get a year-salary with you and some other nice compensation-things to set you up with a new employer... ).

Because of that, some think that the chances of getting the nessecary 'culture change' will become less, because 'the older generation' is still there.

I don't really agree with this point, I think, but when people talked about it at work today, I thought of this discussion over here... Sometimes you hear things like older people are taught to work in another way, more boss-employee, hierarchical minded, while younger people are 'raised' with thoughts like 'boss is just a person with another role, we are equal, we're all part of a group'. In a way they say there is some sort of generation conflict going on, concerning the way of (team-) working, working relationships etc...

I'm not sure what to think of that statement...sound more like an attitude-thing to me, not age related. But can also understand that if you are used to a way of working for a long time, it can be hard to adjust to a real new approach.... opinions?

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think you start a new thread.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[SQLSister]

When I did industrial engineering tyoe of work, I studied resistance to change. First be aware that all people have some degree of resistance to change. That said, some personality types resist change more strongly than others. This is not a function of age but of personality type.

When I worked for an audit agency where 80+% had a personality type that was very judgemental (a plus in auditing), the resistance to change was almost unbelievably strong. When I worked for an organization which specialized organizational change, the resistance to change was must less (although still there) because change was our business.

IT professionals also have to embrace change as part of their business. Therefore the personility types who can deal with change tend to be more attracted to this type of work than those who cannot. This is not necessarily true for the people who went into IT when change was not so rapid (before PCs when you could learn Cobol and program in the same language forever). So a smaller percentage of people in this group may be accepting of change.

Another thing that makes people who are older appear more resistant to change is that often the changes to 'new methodoligies' are not new. They are frequently ideas that were tried years before. So older people may look at the idea as something they tried and failed with in the past whereas younger people may see it as a new, fresh idea.

But the key to remember is that there will be resistance to change - no matter which mix of people are left after a downsizing. One area where almost everyone will resist change is in their basic methodology for day-to-day work.

To get people to change, you must offer an incentive to change. Without buy-in by the people affected, NO change will last through the inertia of an organization.

The basic methodology for successfully introducing change to an organization is:

1. Get employee buy-in by having them help design the change and showing them the benefits of the change to them personally as well as to the organization.

2. Train people in the change. Train until they feel comfortable with it, not just a one day seminar.

3. If possible, remove the old method from them (easy to do with software or machinery, not so easy with work methods).

4. During the first few weeks of the change, monitor behavior closely. When someone fails to use the changed method, find out why (oops forgot to handle that exception). If they just felt uncomfortable with the new method, then walk them through that particular task with the new method. More effective than punishment for using the old method is rewarding those that you catch using the new method. Remember it will take at least a couple of months for the least resistant to change people to feel comfortable with the new method. It can take much longer for the most resistant, so the closely monitoring phase generally should last 3-6 months.

5. Reward. Reward. Reward. Give people an incentive to use the new method.

 

[Tarwn]

Youngsters starting fresh are considered inexperienced, but are creative, motivated and easy to mold with less attachments.
Darn, guess my company lost out. I was hired in my mid-twenties, but while I did/do have creativity and motivation, they found it very difficult to mold me (they wanted me to do installation, troubleshooting, small throw away app's, etc) and I since I had already experienced enterprise level development I was quite appalled at the shortcuts they wanted in some of the mini-apps they asked me to write...


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http://www.tiernok.com/

 

[Kavius]

I wanted to add a point (wish I had been watching this thread earlier).

BJCooperIT:
You mentioned that working with younger developers gets her in a position where she is &quot;Mom&quot;. That's too bad. One of my best friends I met through a contract. He was one of the other developers on the team and what started as a great meeting of the minds in the office turned into a couple of drinks, which turned into his daughter getting really mad at me if I don't come over to the house for a while.

We now look to each other when we are doing contract work that we know we are going to need help on. Whoever gets the contract in the first place takes lead and off we go. It has turned into a very good work. It turns out that while we think very much alike (hence the friendship) our styles of dealing with people and solving problems are very different. That means we get to play good cop, bad cop.

Its also very nice to know that we have similar skill sets, but very different strengths. I know that some of the systems we have built together would be nowhere near of the quality they are if we had done them seperately.

I am 25, He is... Oh.. he might be watching... The ratio between our ages, would be viewed by some, as signifigant. We have been known each other for at least 4 years. But I now spend a great deal of time with him and his wife, and have found them to be dern good friends.

If you are eating alone, or getting turned into a 'mom', the people you are working with need their heads screwed on straight.

 

[BJCooperIT]

kavius,
I think it is great that it worked out so well for you. On one of my recent contracts I met a younger lady (29) from India. It was her first experience working here in the United States and she was having to learn our American culture and how to work on a government contract. She felt comfortable asking me questions and we became great friends. She called my father &quot;grandpop&quot;. She attended my daughter's high school graduation and bought her a necklace for prom. We even took two weekend vacations together. In short, she became a member of my family.

In addition, we became a strong working team. We had our individual strengths and between the two of us we handled all the tasks of our project. Out of 7 people on the contract, the client asked for just the two of us for an extension because we worked so well together. We learned new skills from each other. It was a great, probably once in a career experience. She is half a country away now and sorely missed.

Those that dismiss their older/younger co-workers without taking the time to get to know them are depriving themselves of potentially wonderful experiences.

[sup]Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.[/sup][sup] ~George Bernard Shaw[/sup]
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000

 

[lionelhill]

Bloomin' interesting thread, and much appreciated.

SQLsister, you probably know the Klee/Kandinsky experiment? It's often demonstrated here in the UK where no one has ever seen the pictures of either artist. You split a group of psychology students into 2 groups based on whether they prefer a picture by Klee or one by Kandinski. Then you ask them to make generalisations about the other group.

The usual result is people start with nice things like &quot;well, they tend to be fair haired&quot;, then come the &quot;they're all smaller than us&quot;, followed by &quot;most of them turned up late and haven't said much this morning&quot;, &quot;they tend to be grumpier than us&quot; etc. etc.

Things rapidly turn into a &quot;them&quot; and &quot;us&quot; situation, with them being a lot less nice than us.

Ah well, sad being a human sometimes.

 

[Kavius]

I like that one. It is a toned down version of the experiment done in the US where a bunch of under grads were split into two groups (based on lottery): prisoners, and gaurds. After a couple of weeks the experiment had to be called off because the gaurds and prisoners were beating each other and there had been several attempts by prisoners to escape.

I'm remembering all of this from my intro psych course. I can't seem to find a reference to the experiment right now. If someone knows of one...