paleogryph
MIS
This is a must read:
>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.
>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.
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Foreign engineers will change our economic world; prepare yourself 4
- Thread starter paleogryph
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But it's all relative, isn't it? For instance, being 'rich' isn't a static benchmark--even if you adjust for inflation.
For instance, if you took a 'working poor' family in America--whether we're talking appalachian hillbillies, rural poor, inner-city poor, whatever--from the 1950's or '60s, and asked them if they'd feel rich if they had the following:
A car with fuel injection (WOW, like the Corvette?!) and several computers on board (Really, like a spaceship!!?).
A telephone with no cord where you can talk to anyone in the world from anywhere in the world.
A Color TV double the size of the current top-line multi-thousand$$ color TV set--with REMOTE CONTROL!!
Etc, etc, etc....
...they'd feel like the richest people on earth. Yet now the typical working poor family has all of the above:
Even the cheapest cars are fuel-injected, and have many on-board computers, cordless/cell phones are owned by even the poorest of welfare cases, a 27" Color TV with remote is considered entry level.
And how did we get there? Cheap foriegn labor. Do you think we'd have these low-cost consumer electronics if it was assembled by $20/hr American Labor as opposed to $2.00 per day malaysian labor?
But the $20 per hour American who lost his job to the malaysian 12-year old doesn't need that $40,000 salary to buy the cordless phone--precisely because it's not being made in a factory staffed with hundreds of $20/hr union break-takers. He can afford even with his new, lower Slurpee-pouring or burger-flipping salary.
We'll keep the 'good' jobs of designing and engineering all this stuff, and find someone else to build it.
Software doesn't fit that model exactly, but nevertheless, I guess now some software will be produced in the same fashion. Will we benefit in the same way?
--jsteph
For instance, if you took a 'working poor' family in America--whether we're talking appalachian hillbillies, rural poor, inner-city poor, whatever--from the 1950's or '60s, and asked them if they'd feel rich if they had the following:
A car with fuel injection (WOW, like the Corvette?!) and several computers on board (Really, like a spaceship!!?).
A telephone with no cord where you can talk to anyone in the world from anywhere in the world.
A Color TV double the size of the current top-line multi-thousand$$ color TV set--with REMOTE CONTROL!!
Etc, etc, etc....
...they'd feel like the richest people on earth. Yet now the typical working poor family has all of the above:
Even the cheapest cars are fuel-injected, and have many on-board computers, cordless/cell phones are owned by even the poorest of welfare cases, a 27" Color TV with remote is considered entry level.
And how did we get there? Cheap foriegn labor. Do you think we'd have these low-cost consumer electronics if it was assembled by $20/hr American Labor as opposed to $2.00 per day malaysian labor?
But the $20 per hour American who lost his job to the malaysian 12-year old doesn't need that $40,000 salary to buy the cordless phone--precisely because it's not being made in a factory staffed with hundreds of $20/hr union break-takers. He can afford even with his new, lower Slurpee-pouring or burger-flipping salary.
We'll keep the 'good' jobs of designing and engineering all this stuff, and find someone else to build it.
Software doesn't fit that model exactly, but nevertheless, I guess now some software will be produced in the same fashion. Will we benefit in the same way?
--jsteph
Rich and poor are comparative: unless every country has identical resources, there will always be richer countries and poorer countries
There are many ways to express these terms in numbers, but one of the most important factors is cost of living. Another one is culture.
An example: McDonalds or any other Fast Food etc. settles somewhere in Timbuktu. Management, the menu etc. is imported from the US (or someother place where it is cheaper).
Still they try to sell it by american standards (mainly the price). In the beginnng it is an atraction for the locales to buy at McDonalds, (toys for the kids, playground etc.) If McDonalds doesn't adhere to the local culture and eating habbits they will be out of bussiness on the long run, because they still will be more expensive then local competitors.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
There are many ways to express these terms in numbers, but one of the most important factors is cost of living. Another one is culture.
An example: McDonalds or any other Fast Food etc. settles somewhere in Timbuktu. Management, the menu etc. is imported from the US (or someother place where it is cheaper).
Still they try to sell it by american standards (mainly the price). In the beginnng it is an atraction for the locales to buy at McDonalds, (toys for the kids, playground etc.) If McDonalds doesn't adhere to the local culture and eating habbits they will be out of bussiness on the long run, because they still will be more expensive then local competitors.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
guestgulkan
Technical User
But the $20 per hour American who lost his job to the malaysian 12-year old doesn't need that $40,000 salary to buy the cordless phone--precisely because it's not being made in a factory staffed with hundreds of $20/hr union break-takers. He can afford even with his new, lower Slurpee-pouring or burger-flipping salary.
That's a pretty of the cuff flippant remark.
----------------
Don't forget that the $20/hour American still has debts (probably mortgage, health plans, kids to send to schools/colleges and other such) that are all geared to a $20/hour salary!
We'll keep the 'good' jobs of designing and engineering all this stuff, and find someone else to build it.
The number of people who build the stuff probably outnumber the people who design/engineer the stuff by a factor of 10 at least.
How would you feel if Boeing adopted that idea??
That's a pretty of the cuff flippant remark.
----------------
Don't forget that the $20/hour American still has debts (probably mortgage, health plans, kids to send to schools/colleges and other such) that are all geared to a $20/hour salary!
We'll keep the 'good' jobs of designing and engineering all this stuff, and find someone else to build it.
The number of people who build the stuff probably outnumber the people who design/engineer the stuff by a factor of 10 at least.
How would you feel if Boeing adopted that idea??
If you stop paying for goods that are over priced, and only are putting money in the pockets of "celebrities" and CEO's, you can make a difference.
That 12 year old malasian boy or girl could be working for a famous sportshoe brand, and getting just enough food to continue work the next day.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
That 12 year old malasian boy or girl could be working for a famous sportshoe brand, and getting just enough food to continue work the next day.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
It also boils down to quality...
Due to regulations and standards, other countries might be able to take short cuts here and there where it is hard to get away with in america, to produce for less by cutting costs and quality control measures...
So would you rather buy 1 product that will last you for years...
Or a cheap rip off that you have to buy over and over every month...
which is cheaper... 1 product for a 1 time $100
or a product you will buy for $10 to "save money" then turn around and have to buy it every month for a year (X 12) just to end up pissed and buy the $100 one anyways...
Do the math... $100 or $220... hmmmmm... which is cheaper again?
Then again, if you only need it for a 1 time use, the $10 might actually have an advantage...
Also, yeah the kid in the sweat shop is a bad mental picture... and yes they should be paid more...
But on the flip side... if they are getting a dollar a day... that is a dollar more than they would have...
Don't get me wrong, I am against the whole sweat shop thing.
But... There are usually 2 sides to every story...
People tend to only want to hear the socially exceptable one...
I wish I could live and be happy making only a dollar a day...
(unfortunatly I think my boss knows that ;-))
truthfully... I agree with svanels
Have Fun, Be Young... Code BASIC
-Josh Stribling
Due to regulations and standards, other countries might be able to take short cuts here and there where it is hard to get away with in america, to produce for less by cutting costs and quality control measures...
So would you rather buy 1 product that will last you for years...
Or a cheap rip off that you have to buy over and over every month...
which is cheaper... 1 product for a 1 time $100
or a product you will buy for $10 to "save money" then turn around and have to buy it every month for a year (X 12) just to end up pissed and buy the $100 one anyways...
Do the math... $100 or $220... hmmmmm... which is cheaper again?
Then again, if you only need it for a 1 time use, the $10 might actually have an advantage...
Also, yeah the kid in the sweat shop is a bad mental picture... and yes they should be paid more...
But on the flip side... if they are getting a dollar a day... that is a dollar more than they would have...
Don't get me wrong, I am against the whole sweat shop thing.
But... There are usually 2 sides to every story...
People tend to only want to hear the socially exceptable one...
I wish I could live and be happy making only a dollar a day...
(unfortunatly I think my boss knows that ;-))
truthfully... I agree with svanels
Have Fun, Be Young... Code BASIC
-Josh Stribling
You people fail to look to the future.
Sure the India places aren't perfect yet. They've really just started in the last 2 years. Wait 10 years from now. I GUARANTEE you there will be almost no programming jobs in the US. Definataly none for more that $10/hour.
Sure the India places aren't perfect yet. They've really just started in the last 2 years. Wait 10 years from now. I GUARANTEE you there will be almost no programming jobs in the US. Definataly none for more that $10/hour.
guestgulkan,
The remark about the union-break-takers wasn't meant to disparage. It may have been exagerrated, but it was meant to make an economic point--that our overall cost of living has, in real terms and adjusted for inflation, decreased.
What has happened (in what some may see as ironic) is that we have utilized to the fullest the ideas of not only Adam Smith and Henry Ford, but of evolution itself--marketing based on price and what the market will bear (both in terms of product price and wage level), finding the most efficent division of labor, and letting 'survival of the fittest' weed out the inefficent, overpriced producers. It may seem cold and cruel, but that's life, that's the invisble hand.
Now, I am fully aware that there are some very unfair advantages that many foriegn factories have--for instance, if one of their workers has his arm cut off by an unsafe stamping press, the plant owners dont have OSHA to answer to, or multi-million dollar lawsuits to worry about. They basically kick the armless kid out the back door, open the front and shout "Next!" (again, exaggerated, but to make a point). In China, essentially no-cost prison labor is used for manufacture of many consumer products. Many other examples exist, and I have long argued that the playing field should be leveled, but the bottom line is that the market wont bear what it would cost for, say, a computer, if every single IC and transistor and circuit board were assembled in America at typical american union wages.
We can look at our wages in America compared to other nations as a Lock on a river. On one side, the level is high, on the other, very low, but it's the same waterway. And of course a Lock is an artificial means of keeping one level high and another low--whether it's Union contracts or tariffs or isolationist policies--in many cases the wage levels here are aritificially high. Global trade breaks the lock and there is a violent rush of water from high to low, and eventually it finds the 'right' level. Unfortunately for Americans this is a lower level than what we're used to.
And as far as Boeing, the assembly for the major airframe components is a far more skilled position than stamping circuit boards; there are also security concerns, which is why the assembly is done in America at higher wages. And a good example of unfair playing field is Boeings competition with Airbus--Airbus is government subsidized by not one but I believe 3 governments, so Airbus has quite a built in advantage there.
--jsteph
The remark about the union-break-takers wasn't meant to disparage. It may have been exagerrated, but it was meant to make an economic point--that our overall cost of living has, in real terms and adjusted for inflation, decreased.
What has happened (in what some may see as ironic) is that we have utilized to the fullest the ideas of not only Adam Smith and Henry Ford, but of evolution itself--marketing based on price and what the market will bear (both in terms of product price and wage level), finding the most efficent division of labor, and letting 'survival of the fittest' weed out the inefficent, overpriced producers. It may seem cold and cruel, but that's life, that's the invisble hand.
Now, I am fully aware that there are some very unfair advantages that many foriegn factories have--for instance, if one of their workers has his arm cut off by an unsafe stamping press, the plant owners dont have OSHA to answer to, or multi-million dollar lawsuits to worry about. They basically kick the armless kid out the back door, open the front and shout "Next!" (again, exaggerated, but to make a point). In China, essentially no-cost prison labor is used for manufacture of many consumer products. Many other examples exist, and I have long argued that the playing field should be leveled, but the bottom line is that the market wont bear what it would cost for, say, a computer, if every single IC and transistor and circuit board were assembled in America at typical american union wages.
We can look at our wages in America compared to other nations as a Lock on a river. On one side, the level is high, on the other, very low, but it's the same waterway. And of course a Lock is an artificial means of keeping one level high and another low--whether it's Union contracts or tariffs or isolationist policies--in many cases the wage levels here are aritificially high. Global trade breaks the lock and there is a violent rush of water from high to low, and eventually it finds the 'right' level. Unfortunately for Americans this is a lower level than what we're used to.
And as far as Boeing, the assembly for the major airframe components is a far more skilled position than stamping circuit boards; there are also security concerns, which is why the assembly is done in America at higher wages. And a good example of unfair playing field is Boeings competition with Airbus--Airbus is government subsidized by not one but I believe 3 governments, so Airbus has quite a built in advantage there.
--jsteph
India started in the last two years? Are you kidding? The Indians are already decades busy in IT and other areas, where do you think the western world got their ballistic experts from? The Indian (and Pakistan) nuclear programme, you think that they learned the technology just overnight?
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
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1
- #29
>So would you rather buy 1 product that will last you for years...
>Or a cheap rip off...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just this sort of blinkered thinking that led to the decimation of the Detroit motor industry? The USA is not the only country that can make good products.
>Or a cheap rip off...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just this sort of blinkered thinking that led to the decimation of the Detroit motor industry? The USA is not the only country that can make good products.
- Thread starter
- #30
paleogryph
MIS
Ok, time to be the devils advocate again...
I think the gist of the article is the fact that India and China are graduating many more engineers than the US. That is the key here. Combine that with the obvious financial incentives. Because of these factors, in the future you should see more and more software engineering being done in Asia. It may not be apparent right now, but in this situation, time is on their side. Asian countries are also upgrading their infrastructure. It's not just mud floors anymore.
Cultural and societal differences being a roadblock to contracts being given to top notch Indian consulting firms? I don't think so. Did it stop other countries and cultures from being swallowed whole by MS? Isn't MS an American company...? Also, who has some of the best mastery of the English language in the world? The Indians.
Virtual/Tele-Meetings too complicated or impersonal? This could have been the right answer pre-9/11 and pre-SARS...
Bandwidth is only getting bigger and tele-conferencing is only getting better.
Realtime collaboration and monitoring on software projects doesn't neccesitate being in the next room.
>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.
I think the gist of the article is the fact that India and China are graduating many more engineers than the US. That is the key here. Combine that with the obvious financial incentives. Because of these factors, in the future you should see more and more software engineering being done in Asia. It may not be apparent right now, but in this situation, time is on their side. Asian countries are also upgrading their infrastructure. It's not just mud floors anymore.
Cultural and societal differences being a roadblock to contracts being given to top notch Indian consulting firms? I don't think so. Did it stop other countries and cultures from being swallowed whole by MS? Isn't MS an American company...? Also, who has some of the best mastery of the English language in the world? The Indians.
Virtual/Tele-Meetings too complicated or impersonal? This could have been the right answer pre-9/11 and pre-SARS...
Bandwidth is only getting bigger and tele-conferencing is only getting better.
Realtime collaboration and monitoring on software projects doesn't neccesitate being in the next room.
>Think for yourself<
...or someone else will do it for you.
One thing I can't help thinking is:
Do some people realy forget who is doing whoes jobs and have been doing this for years.
I have been working in this business since 1980 and for all these years the US has been the main exporter of IT tech.
Even if MS and IBM layed off every single programmer they have it would take a lot of years before everything goes into balance (import/export)
A lot of people tend to want a open market (as long as it's good for them self)
We see this on almost a weekly basis from the EU and the US (don't remember what they fight about this week)
Do some people realy forget who is doing whoes jobs and have been doing this for years.
I have been working in this business since 1980 and for all these years the US has been the main exporter of IT tech.
Even if MS and IBM layed off every single programmer they have it would take a lot of years before everything goes into balance (import/export)
A lot of people tend to want a open market (as long as it's good for them self)
We see this on almost a weekly basis from the EU and the US (don't remember what they fight about this week)
Without adding any real substance to the discussion I'd like to point out one flaw with the thinking in a few of the posts here. Mentioning US wages and yearly salaries compared to over seas wages, people are pretending employers only pay out what the employee receives.
Issues of benifits and insurances, hassles with firing employees and unemployment etc... cost employers big money. So don't pretend that making the take home salaries equivalent means as much as some people believe it does.
Anyway, just an addendum, after reading some post above about getting the salaries within 5,000 of each other.
-Rob
Issues of benifits and insurances, hassles with firing employees and unemployment etc... cost employers big money. So don't pretend that making the take home salaries equivalent means as much as some people believe it does.
Anyway, just an addendum, after reading some post above about getting the salaries within 5,000 of each other.
-Rob
rob,
My numbers comparing salaries, and the $5000 figure, were theoretical and were used simply to make a point.
Regardless of what the 'take home' salary was, and if the actual cost to employer was 30% higher or whatever the benefit package and other costs are, the point is that the US salaries will drop, and foreign salaries or consulting fees will rise, narrowing the gap between the two, making the foreing talent less appealing.
--jsteph
My numbers comparing salaries, and the $5000 figure, were theoretical and were used simply to make a point.
Regardless of what the 'take home' salary was, and if the actual cost to employer was 30% higher or whatever the benefit package and other costs are, the point is that the US salaries will drop, and foreign salaries or consulting fees will rise, narrowing the gap between the two, making the foreing talent less appealing.
--jsteph
This just in!
Gary Haran
==========================
Gary Haran
==========================
sleipnir214
Programmer
<sarcasm>
Damn. I can decode a Bengali accent. Now I have to add Russian, Romanian and Czech accents too?
</sarcasm>
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
Damn. I can decode a Bengali accent. Now I have to add Russian, Romanian and Czech accents too?
</sarcasm>
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
AIXSPadmin
MIS
But, alas, some things will always remain in the U.S. because of DoD security restrictions.
![[americanflag]](/data/assets/smilies/americanflag.gif "[americanflag] [americanflag]")
Strong & Proud with Courage, Honor, Truth and Integrity. America!
Strong & Proud with Courage, Honor, Truth and Integrity. America!
sleipnir214
Programmer
AIXSPadmin:
Come again?
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
Come again?
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
AIXSPadmin
MIS
Not every job will go overseas because they cannot due to security restrictions imposed by national security. And most businesses (not Fortune companies) who employ the majority of people (programmers, net admins, etc) are going to employ the person in their town, not someone in India or wherever.
Sure, maybe Computer Associates and others will send programming jobs and other areas overseas, but they are a small percentage of IT talent.
Sure, maybe Computer Associates and others will send programming jobs and other areas overseas, but they are a small percentage of IT talent.
I agree with AIXSPadmin about most companies using local talent--this mainly because the typical (not fortune 100) company simply doesn't develop software on a scale that would benefit from the offshore model. They need a team of guys in-house, on the spot for custom development, day-to-day support, debugging (because custom apps are never really out of beta!), upgrading, etc. etc.
--jsteph
--jsteph
dilettante
MIS
The problem is that this "small job" stuff is like the Cobol/RPG applications development of old. Now that anybody can sort of hack something out using Access or Crystal Reports or VB the pay scale will continue to drop as well.
The thing that pays well is system software, middleware, and resellable software products. This is where the programming money is, and most of it is done by those big companies you're talking about: the ones who are shipping the jobs overseas.
The thing that pays well is system software, middleware, and resellable software products. This is where the programming money is, and most of it is done by those big companies you're talking about: the ones who are shipping the jobs overseas.
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