Fire you for little or no reason. 7

[Paul4Meep]

I live in the state of PA, and was curious whether or not anybody was aware of specific laws in PA (and other states, just out of curiosity). A friend and former co-worker was once telling me that a company is literally allowed to fire an employee for little or no reason. "You missed one day of work. YOU'RE FIRED!" "You were a minute late getting back from your break. YOU'RE FIRED!" "We don't like you and you smell. YOU'RE FIRED!"

Now, I thought there were labor laws and such that made it so that a company had to have cause to fire you. Not enough money (which is really more so a lay-off), gross incompetence, you do something really wrong, etc. I thought a company could get into legal trouble if they just up and fired you for little or no reason.

For example, if you called out sick for the first time ever in your two years working for a company, so they fire you, couldn't you seek legal action and wouldn't you almost definitely win?

 

[chiph]

Yup. Word gets around. Eventually they end up with only the truly desparate, and those they relocate from out of town.

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

 

[smedvid]

imho, PA is PRO Company/Industry. On the other side of the coin, CA is PRO Employee. It really depends upon the state. Unfortunately, PA does not favor employee rights. Additionally, there are laws designed based on size. If a company only has 19 employees they may not be subject to the same laws where there are 20 or more employees.

My company just fired (2) employees for downloading music files. Always beware that big-brother is watching...

Good Topic...

Steve Medvid
"IT Consultant & Web Master"

http://www.saveourfarm.com

Chester County, PA Residents
Please Show Your Support...

 

[Glenn9999]

Yup. Word gets around. Eventually they end up with only the truly desparate, and those they relocate from out of town."

Exactly, the company does work out great for those that are into the military style regimentalism, and can deal with the "one false move you're gone" atmosphere. Both stories were violations of company policy. First one being "no eating during working hours", and the second one was "insubordination" (the group was told to "stop gabbing and start working" by the boss there)

 

[pmonett]

Paul4meep :

When the company in question does everything it can to remove resources from a department, including not responding in time to tenders and refusing to sign contracts, then cites "economic reasons" for laying people off, I call that firing. Technically of course, it makes a world of difference.

I did not make a stink out of it because I got unemployement rights (which I actually didn't need anyway), and besides, it would have been quite difficult to prove anything in court.
But still, they torpedoed the department until they could declare it sunk. That stinks.

Pascal.

 

[Paul4Meep]

Thanks again, everybody, for your input. I'm going to paste sections below and respond. I apologize if you said something, and I didn't include it. It is not personal, it just means I didn't really have anything to add.

Glenn9999:

"Those actually do happen. I have a whole plate of horror stories from a local company regarding their IT staff and stories like this. To make two of the stories very short, one woman got fired for eating a piece of candy on job and another GROUP of people got fired for conferring on a problem. I think this was what you were going for? But the company is in an at-will state, so this stuff is perfectly legal."

These are both great examples of what I mean. For one thing, I am not familiar with this company's policies. Maybe they have a policy against eating on the job. Still, that would not really be a fair policy (unless there is some extreme case as to why eating at this particular job is not good). After all, if you get hungry, you should be able to eat. They don't gain much from hungry employees who can't focus on work because they need sustinance. Also A PIECE OF CANDY?!?!?! Talk about making an example of somebody. The second case is probably even worse. So, this company doesn't encourage team work amongst its employees? Oh, you know, why would they? We should all be after each other's throats. Yeah, that will build a great company. (Sarcasm, in case you didn't catch that. ;-) ).

chiph:

"Yup. Word gets around. Eventually they end up with only the truly desparate, and those they relocate from out of town."

Yeah, and can you imagine the type of losers they'd get if they can only rely on those who are that desperate for a job? Not exactly a good company policy, when it leads to that kind of staff.

smedvid:

"My company just fired (2) employees for downloading music files. Always beware that big-brother is watching..."

Wow. Another good example of what I was talking about. I can at least understand that this probably IS against company policy, but it sure as Hell is not something I'd consider worthy of termination unless they do it again and again despite constant requests to stop.

"Good Topic... "

Thank you!

Glenn9999:

"Exactly, the company does work out great for those that are into the military style regimentalism, and can deal with the "one false move you're gone" atmosphere. Okay, considering I started this thread, this may sound weird, but I actually do quite well in that kind of atmosphere myself. I certainly do not mean to brag. I just never really give a company a reason to even keep their eye on me. If I were to ever get fired, it would most likely mean the company is REALLY firing people for absolutely no reason (Unless, of course, it was a lay off. That's somewhat different).

pmonett:

"When the company in question does everything it can to remove resources from a department, including not responding in time to tenders and refusing to sign contracts, then cites "economic reasons" for laying people off, I call that firing. Technically of course, it makes a world of difference.

I did not make a stink out of it because I got unemployement rights (which I actually didn't need anyway), and besides, it would have been quite difficult to prove anything in court.
But still, they torpedoed the department until they could declare it sunk. That stinks."

Ah. Good point. Though, to still speak in your defense, it sounds like it was a vendetta against your department and not you. Okay, okay, I guess it does not make much of a difference. In either case, it still means you are out of a job.

 

[deputydoofy]

Well, I can tell you from an IS perspective that I do watch individuals when I see something on their machine that is not quite the norm. However, I don't consider myself the "police" of the company unless I think what the individual is doing is going to cause a headache for the company or our department. Let me elaborate.

We have people here that tend to play internet games. I'll use VNC and take control of their PC to "physically" close out the window. Once they see their mouse move "by itself," they tend to think twice about playing online games at work.

CD's in the the PC - I don't give a crap. Some supervisors might, but I don't. I would never report it.

Internet radio - I will use VNC and shut it off. We don't need our bandwidth reduced for nonsense. Don't be cheap. BUY a radio.

Downloading music? Doesn't happen too much as far as I know. Besides, we have no CD burners here so the music wouldn't do them very good for very long. Can't zip up an MP3 and throw it on a floppy.

Going online and using forums? Boy, wouldn't I be the pot calling the kettle black. HERE I am. Of course, I'm generally searching out IT stuff all day long anyway. I am on tek-tips.

The biggest problem we have is that most users don't understand pop-up windows. They think that the pop-up message is a "real" message and they panic. Most of them think they really do have spyware so they click the "ok button," which is really a link and get tons more pop-up messages. For our NT users, they occasionally hit OK and install something by mistake and then they DO have adware.

As mentioned by Paul, these should really only be grounds for termination if their behavior persists. Otherwise, a warning should be all that's needed.

My 2¢.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doofymusic

 

[deputydoofy]

I should also say that not everything I liseted do I even view as an "offense."

I don't personally care if people check stock prices, news, forums (depending on its content, of course - can't have any objectionable content up at work), etc. Those things are generally harmless and I don't give it a second thought after I know what it is they're doing.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doofymusic

 

[Glenn9999]

I just never really give a company a reason to even keep their eye on me."

For some reason, I thought of another story regarding this company. You know how the boss found out about the woman's candy? Closed-circuit cameras. Again perfectly legal, from what I understand.

So basically if you went to work for this company, that's enough reason for them to keep their eye on you.

 

[Paul4Meep]

We have people here that tend to play internet games. I'll use VNC and take control of their PC to "physically" close out the window. Once they see their mouse move "by itself," they tend to think twice about playing online games at work.

OH MY GOSH! You could have so much fun with that! LOL! Freak people out, and make them think their computer is haunted, or something.

I had to do an internship as part of my major. In working with the IT guys, one guy remoted into a computer once. Then, all of a sudden, he can tell that somebody is trying to use the computer from the other end. I joke "They probably think it's haunted." So, he types something saying something like "I'm fixing this computer remotely. Please use another computer for the time being." The person types back "Oh, thank goodness. I thought it was haunted." LOL! P-)

Internet radio - I will use VNC and shut it off.

Or even better, you should change it to some really annoying station (country or pop music would annoy me) and then change it back each time they try to change it back to their station. LOL! Time consuming? Maybe. Fun? HECK YES!

For some reason, I thought of another story regarding this company. You know how the boss found out about the woman's candy? Closed-circuit cameras. Again perfectly legal, from what I understand.

So basically if you went to work for this company, that's enough reason for them to keep their eye on you.

Wow! Thanks for this story. That is insane. I can't help but laugh. It is somewhat funny in its own absurd way. Of course, I wouldn't find it funny if I were that woman. I certainly hope a company like that has darn good security. ;-)

 

[deputydoofy]

Yes, I must admit. Amidst the strangeness of my company, I enjoy my time there. I'm also friendly with most of the people there so that helps a lot, too. Otherwise, it could get really boring really quickly.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doofymusic

 

[ttmac]

In relation to the woman sacked for eating candy, I wonder how much it cost the company to have someone find the relevant piece of CCTV footage that provided the evidence upon which she was sacked?

Was it the security guard who just happened to notice or was it a manager who had to trawl through hours and hours of footage to isolate a minute or two of footage?


Tom.

 

[Paul4Meep]

That's a really good point. I mean, I just cannot imagine that managers constantly watch those monitors. I find it equally hard to believe that a security guard would a)take notice of that, b)care one way or the other AND c)actually go out of his or her way to report it to a manager. I mean, it seems the most likely way this person could have been caught is that somebody was desperately looking for a reason to can her, or at least somebody. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me. After all, if she did something to deserve that kind of looming big brother surveillance, why wouldn't they just have fired her already?

 

[DPlank]

Perhaps the necessity of smoking gun evidence was prevalent. If she did (and I'm not saying she did) do something else the company didn't like, and they had no evidence they could use, or the reasons for the dismissal were discriminatory, then they may have decided to wait for the slightest incident they could just jump onto...

Cheers,
Dave

Probably the only Test Analyst Manager on Tek-Tips...therefore whatever it was that went wrong, I'm to blame...

animadverto vos in Abyssus!

Take a look at Forum1393!

 

[Paul4Meep]

That makes sense. I suppose it is much better than if they were to actually fire her without any evidence of why she deserved to be fired. At first, I just kinda didn't think of it that way since employment is apparently "at will" anyway, meaning they don't legally have to have a good reason (or one at all) to fire somebody.

 

[Glenn9999]

That's a really good point. I mean, I just cannot imagine that managers constantly watch those monitors."

I can't say I know the complete story for sure, but they do have CC cameras everywhere in this place.

"I find it equally hard to believe that a security guard would a)take notice of that, b)care one way or the other AND c)actually go out of his or her way to report it to a manager."

All I can say is it happened. I didn't hear the woman's specific circumstances or who was looking at the camera footage, but the culture and the use of the CC cameras has been confirmed to me by multiple sources.

"Pretty pathetic, if you ask me. After all, if she did something to deserve that kind of looming big brother surveillance, why wouldn't they just have fired her already?"

Welcome to the culture of this company. Even in looking for work, I don't bother when the company has an opening - and the company very regularly is hiring. Of course, there's a reason the company is always hiring...

Just one of many horror stories out there...thankfully I got wind of this one before I got in enough to personally experience it.

 

[Paul4Meep]

Lucky for you. I'm glad you didn't get stuck have to deal with that kinda crappola. I certainly wasn't doubting what you said. I was just illustrating how obsurd it was that somebody would have noticed the gal eating a piece of candy. Hey, you think next they'll fire somebody for sneezing? ;-)

 

[deputydoofy]

*ACHOO*
Damn. They're sending me out with a cardboard box right now. lol

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doofymusic

 

[deputydoofy]

Here's an interesting read, only slightly OT.

http://www.forbes.com/careers/2005/...ess-cx_sr_0901bizbasics.html?partner=yahootix

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doofymusic

 

[Paul4Meep]

*ACHOO*
Damn. They're sending me out with a cardboard box right now. lol

Oh no. Not the old pink slip and a map. Here's an interesting question for anybody who may actually know the answer to this: Are they actually pink?

 

[Paul4Meep]

Oh, I forgot, thanks for the article! It was a great read. I actually really like that site now. A lot of interesting articles.