External Paging Clarification

[jsampsell]

I've read through a lot of the external paging posts already in this section but haven't had all of my questions answered so forgive me for yet another external paging post.

I have all the manuals for the system and I've read through everything about external paging but what I can't seem to find is information on what the paging system relay is.

On page 299 of the Installer Guide (MICS 7.0) it says that the steps for connecting an external paging system is:

1. Follow the installation instructions provided by the manufacturer.
2. Connect the paging system audio input to the 50-pin distribution block as shown in the wiring charts.
3. Connect the paging system relay to the 50-pin distribution block as shown in the wiring charts.

I know that the paging system audio input pins are what I punch my RCA input cables that go to the amplifier to but what is the relay and what's it for? Am I missing something here or is it just as simple as hooking up the MoH device which had one connection on the block. I'm just puzzled as to what the relay is.

By the way, I've seen all kinds of options for amplifiers on here from Viking, Valcom and Bogen but I've got an old stereo receiver that still works very well that I'd like to use instead. There's really no reason why this wouldn't work, right? I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't since it's doing the same thing as the Viking, Valcom and Bogen amps are doing. And, since the receiver is pushing more power than these other smaller power amps do I "shouldn't" have any problems with a long speaker run of say 100-200 feet. Right?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jeremy

 

[fireeater]

the page relay is a relay that activates when you page ,,that's pretty much it. (some systems have normally open and normally closed connections)

it can be used for some amps to stop the music when paging

or to connect the spkrs when paging (i've had some sites that have a loud hum over the speakers (2 or 3) and have used the relay to only activate them when paging

_____________________________________
S.H.A.D.O.
_____________________________________

mike

 

[jsampsell]

So, let me get this straight. The audio input is an always on signal out to the amplifier and the relay is a switch to turn it on or off based on a trigger? What triggers the relay? And, if the audio input is where you punch down the RCA cables that go to the input on the amp, what gets punched down to the relay pins? Where does that signal come from? I assume somewhere in the MICS system sends the trigger somehow. I'm just trying to picture the wiring now if I want or need to use the relay.

By the way, what good is a user's guide or an installer's guide if it doesn't provide more specific information on something like this? I suppose the technical writers assume a certain level of knowledge before the reader would even attempt to do something like this but it amazes me that as technical as they get they can still leave out so much.

 

[stsguy]

you should not get a hum if connecting to an amp. connecting to the t &r input on the amp (balanced input)is all that is required.

 

[fireeater]

you do not require the relay (if not needed)
the relay is activated (triggered) when you do a page

press feature 62 (external page)or the feature 630, voice is sent out page port, plus relay is activated

most of the time the relay is used to deactivate music from paging ,,amps have a connection for the relay, the amp supplies the power , and is looking for the opening or closer of the relay

page port==========amp input
page relay=========amp relay port

or to interrupt voice

page port tip -----------------------amp input
page port ring---------relay tip
relay ring---------------------------amp input

or to kill music
page port==========amp input

relay tip -----------------------half of music source
relay ring-----------------------amp input
other half of music source-------amp input


keeping in mind the relay is for low amperage and may be used to control high amp relay

the hum i mentioned was on the speaker side of the amp
i have a site that is very noisy in a location so the amp is turned up very loud, but when not used at night you can hear the background hum of the speakers , so i utiliesed the relay to only have the speakers on when the page happens





_____________________________________
S.H.A.D.O.
_____________________________________

mike

 

[jsampsell]

Thanks Mike. I'll give it a try here in a few days and see what happens. I really appreciate the help.

Jeremy

 

[jsampsell]

Ok, here's an update.

I brought in my old stereo receiver that was just sitting in my closet for years in order to try it out before spending money on a true PA amp. I also brought in a 10 foot stereo cable with RCA connectors on each end. I have clipped the ends in order to use this cable between the block and the amp input. I've got a speaker hooked up to the amp just to make sure that everything works before I run the speaker wire up to where the horn driver will be located.

Here's my question: The RCA cable ends have two wires in the cable running to each tip. I tracked it down and one wire goes to the center tip and one wire goes to the circular metal piece. Which of these wires are positive and which are negative? Also, maybe I should already know this, but on the back of the amp, previously I'd just match up the colors on the source and the amp and everything works, but what color is positive and what color is negative? I have white and red which are normal for audio. I've just never needed to know this information since color matching the connectors to the cables is the easiest thing the manufacturers could have done.

I believe that this is the key to getting this setup to work. Once I know how to wire the now bare ends of the RCA cable to the block, it should pass through the signal just fine. Am I correct in this assumption or way off?

Jeremy

 

[curlycord]

I'm not so sure RCA's on the back of a stereo will give the requirements therefore why you should run off the headphone jack with a resistor.

Otherwise the circular metal peice on both you could say is ground/negative and the other 2 (white and red) are your left and right channels....twist the left and right together to make one and the two outer to make 1 as well.
Look at the install guide for the right impedence levels to be sure.

=----(((((((((()----=
curlycord

http://www.curlycord.com

 

[jsampsell]

curlycord - Thanks for the input. I actually wired the two the way you recommended with no luck. I had already thought about the impedence issue and I think that's where my block will end up being. The installer's guide states that the "paging output from the Norstar ICS is 100 mV rms across an impedance of 600 ohms". I don't know enough about how to calculate "100 mV rms across an impedance of 600 ohms" into whether or not the old stereo receiver will be able to work.

I have the speaker hooked up to the amp so I know that it and the amp work in conjunction. All I need is to make sure that the amp has an input type that can actually receive the kind (or, better said, the amount) of signal being sent out from the Norstar system.

I know there are amps made specifically for use with a telephone system and I don't have a problem just biting the bullet and buying one but I like to use these kinds of opportunities to learn. So, any help or advise would be welcomed. If you think I should just give it up and buy an amp, say so. If you have any ideas on how to get the old stereo receiver to work, I'd love some conversation about it.

Thanks,

Jeremy

 

[fireeater]

if the receiver you are using has a "line" input, i would use it ,should work fine
if not a "mic" input will work also

_____________________________________
S.H.A.D.O.
_____________________________________

mike

 

[jsampsell]

fireeater - This receiver has Phono, CD, VCR, and Tape/VCR2 inputs. No mic or line inputs. I've tried it on Phono and CD. Will try the other two (just to say that I have) in just a minute.

The only other thing I can think of is whether or not there is a On/Off setting in the phone menu in order to use the external paging or not. I haven't run across any setting like this yet but maybe I have looked over it without knowing it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in order to actually do an external page all you need to do is Feature 62, right?

Jeremy

 

[Sam173]

that is correct

 

[jsampsell]

Ok, I've tried a lot of things and still no luck.

My next question is about the difference between pins 40/15 and 41/16. Here's how the installer guide puts it:

Pin---Wire Color---Port---Service---Telephones(ICS)
40----Black-Slate--****------T------Page
15----Slate-Black--****------R------Page
41----Yellow-Blue--****-----Make----External Page
16----Blue-Yellow--****----Common---External Page

I was punching down to pins 41/16 since they are labeled External Page.

Getting back to what I originally posted about, do any of you know which of these is the "paging system audio input" and which of these is the "paging system relay"?

Am I missing something else here?

I have not tried punching down to the 40/15 Page pins yet to even see if it will work on those. I thought I'd post here before I tried something I am not sure of.

Thanks in advance.

Jeremy

 

[jsampsell]

Also, I just noticed that page 299 of the installer's guide has a drawing that is labeled "External paging contacts" and shows the Yellow-Blue(make) and Blue-Yellow(common) cables in an idle and active state. I assume that means that the YB/BY cables are the relay connection then? Is that a reasonable assumption based on this drawing?

 

[jsampsell]

Ok, I just figured it out.

It's as I thought after seeing the drawing showing the YB/BY cables in the idle and active states.

Sure enough, pins 40/15 are for the "paging system audio input" and pins 41/16 are for the "paging system relay".

I took the red and white center wires, tied them and connected them to pin 15 and the outside wires, tied them and connected them to pin 40.

Works perfectly.