Export reports to HTML? You may owe $10K per year. 12

[corsair2]

re. the last entry by Dave Howe, what about the tie-up with .NET?
Check out ;

http://www.crystaldecisions.com/x-jump/scr_net/default.asp

What are the licencing issues here?
Just who are we going to end up owing money to?

 

[rhinok]

Some notes on CE pricing, based on a meeting I had with a CD Rep a month or so ago:

1) A Concurrent license seat is ~4500 USD, our Account Executive wanted us to buy at least 25 seats which would run $112,500. I didn't get a quote for named license cost. He was willing to convert out ~300 named Seagate Info licenses into concurrent CE licenses. The algorithm he used converted our ~300 named licenses into 23 concurrent licenses, however, we would still be required to purchase at least 10 concurrent licenses in order for him to make the conversion. So, it would still cost us $45,000 to convert to CE in terms of license cost.

2) Alternatively, you may purchase a 'per processor' license which allows unlimited concurrent usage per processor. This was quoted to me around $58,000. Much more cost effective, imo, depending on the quality of your server hardware.

3) You are allowed to mix concurrent and named license seats in any mix you wish. My preference, according to my clients needs, is to have developers and administrators use named licenses, and have users use concurrent licenses.

4) Unlike Seagate Info, there is no specific 'Designer Add-on' license. Designer licenses are granted by virtue of the user having Crystal Reports (standalone) installed on his/her PC. So not only do you have to purchase Crystal Enterprise, you also have to purchase Crystal Reports for every designer. Cost per copy varies according to Version (Standard, Pro, Designer), Vendor, and Maintenance solution.

 

[sebouh]

Ken,

Just to get your thoughts on this, but what would the licensing implications be if you run a web application (that uses crystal reports for report generation) on more than one server and load balance the servers? Each web server would have one instance of the web reporting component installed (with the 5 concurrent user limitation). So if you had 4 web servers servicing the application you could effectively have 20 concurrent users of the application running the report. Paragraph 5.2.1 makes a statement that isn't very clear.

What do you think?

Sebouh

 

[lalato]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this concept. Here is my question.

If I have 1000 employees, and I setup Crystal Enterprise with 5 concurrent licenses. Do I still need to get a Broadcast license? Even if no single report will be accessed by more than 20 people? In fact, I doubt that any single report will be accessed by more than 10 people.

Thanks for the info,
--sam

 

[DaveHowe]

run a web application (that uses crystal reports for report generation) on more than one server and load balance the servers?
Don't recall seeing this on CE, but in the 8.0 web component, the licence explicitly allowed load balancing, but stated that if you were doing it to effectively have double the licences, you needed to buy double the licences (strangely, if each server did something different it was ok).

and I setup Crystal Enterprise with 5 concurrent licenses. Do I still need to get a Broadcast license?
no - the CE licences cover you for any output of CE up to your concurrent licence limit (this makes sense, yes?)

 

[kenhamady]

I think the key distinction is between users RUNNING reports, and users being sent (or accessing) report OUTPUT. Only OUTPUT is covered by the CBL. Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

tek@kenhamady.com

 

[jonny77]

Hi,

All this License talk is a bit confusing. I've just built a database in SQL server, and have produced a small intranet for a small company to view reports generated from the ever-changing data in the database.
There will be less than 10 computers on a network with access to the web-pages. They will run reports through Active-X.

After redaing all the above I still cant say I'mm 100% sure of what Licenseing is required for this type of use.

I assumed I just needed one licensed copy of CR-Developer Edition on the Server where the SQL Serevr databse is held.

Does anyone know if this is the case?

 

[kenhamady]

The following article might help boil down the issues for you:

http://www.kenhamady.com/news0202.html

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

tek@kenhamady.com

 

[DaveHowe]

As I understand it, "classic" applications (ie, a compiled report and/or a program written using VB calling a Crystal Report) are still royalty free.

What this discussion revolves around is a user writing an application which, on update of the database (or periodically), outputs a report which is then uploaded to a webserver. If the process involves a manual stage (ie, you manually run the app and then ftp the file to the server yourself) apparently that is fine - it is automated reporting solutions (that compete with their new Enterprise product) they are trying to price out of the market.

 

[Stamey]

I spoke to Crystal Decisions this morning and this is what I found out. I asked the questions over and over, and even conferenced in someone else at Crystal to get these answers, still clear as mud.
1. Each organization gets 5 concurrent user licenses, whther it buys one or ten copies of Crystal Reports.
2. A "concurrent" user license is considered to be where a user is connected and runing a report that invokes the use of Crystal Reports' report engine. This means that with 5 concurrent licenses we would have to have 5 users running operational reports at the same time. The web server componenet will limit the users' connections if they reach the 5 user limit. (To me this means don't worry about it unless you get many complaints from users getting license errors accessing real-time reports)
3. If we wish to have more than 5 concurrent users connecting to the operational reports, we can purchase additional client access licenses (CALs) for 2495.00, per license.
4. The report generation we have for our customers, where the reports are exported to HTML or PDF, are covered under the original licenses we got when we purchased CR 8.5. There is no royalty for all o fthe reports we export from CR 8.5.
5. We should buy CR 8.5 for each web server that will run it for operational reports, any server that executes the Crystal report engine in order to generate a report, but weirdly, those licenses will cover 3 people also developing reports. The web server engine comes with the developer edition, and the web server can be used on one machine while the report designer used on the developer's desktop.
6. We can purchase unlimited licensing for each server if we would like, at a cost of 25000.00 per server.

To me, it is very reasonable, as long as I don't exceed 5 concurrent users. They were pretty nice about it, trying to steer me away from buying too many licenses, although they were somewhat evasive about putting clear licensing information on their web site when I asked.

Chris

 

[balves]

#3 - Is this $2495 per 5-pack license or $2495 per individual user license (i.e., concurrent user #6)?

If you can buy an unlimited for $25K, that's only 10 of the #3 licenses.

 

[balves]

Actually....one price appears publicly available.

The "unlimited" V8.5 server license is listed for $26,116.12 at CDW.com.

Not clear on the need for 12 cents part of the price.

 

[kenhamady]

That per processor price keeps dropping, which is good news. I am amazed that it is listed on CDW.

I think your 4th point about exports to pdf might be misleading to people who read this entire thread. Or maybe I am not sure what you mean. This thread was originally started to explain the broadcast license (CBL) which doesn't apply to people RUNNING reports under a web server. It comes into play if you run reports and distribute the OUTPUT to more than 50 people, even via posting them to a web site.

This is in writing from the licensing manager at CD and posted on my web site:

If you do AUTOMATIC and REGULAR export to any format, and post that output to the web where 50 or more people are likely use it, you need a CBL, minimum $10K per year. This only applies to automatically distributed output. It doesn't apply to reports RUN by a user either in a VB application or reports run on a Web server.

If you think you got a different message regarding exports, I would recommend that you ask for it in writing.
Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

tek@kenhamady.com

 

[HowardHammerman]

I checked the CDW web site and found that the server license was for Crystal Reports Version 8.5, NOT for Crystal Enterprise.

the part number I found was 349282
The price was $26,005.00

(Why the five dollars?)

Here is the text:

"Crystal Dimensions is a volume-licensing program that offers customers a cost-effective and convenient way to purchase, manage and maintain Crystal Decisions licenses and upgrades. Designed to fit the needs of organizations of any size, Crystal Dimensions features volume-based discounts, flexible purchasing options, centralized license tracking and easy-to-understand terms."

Crystal Dimensions provides "points" to companies that buy a lot of Crystal so they can lower their price.

Anyway gang, it is not Enterprise.

I will bet a round of beer to everyone who participates in this thread that at the May CDUGNA meeting:

1) there will be lots of new features in enterprise
2) The price will not change by more than 10%



Howard Hammerman,

Crystal Reports training, consulting, books, training material, software, and support. Scheduled training in 8 cities.
howard@hammerman.com

http://www.hammerman.com

800-783-2269

 

[BillSpitzner]

If this licensing issue is enforced by Seagate, it would make using Crystal Reports on our web site very expensive and not cost effective for our environment. It would negate the whole reason for going to Crystal Reports in the first place.

 

[HowardHammerman]

Seagate no longer owns the product. It is now owned by Crystal Decisions. Seagate owns a minority portion of the stock.

And, yes, it may be time to re-think the effectiveness of Crystal Reports. We use C.R. as a prototyping tool and then take the logic from the report and create active server pages which we can deploy endlessly without
licensing worries. Howard Hammerman,

Crystal Reports training, consulting, books, training material, software, and support. Scheduled training in 8 cities.
howard@hammerman.com

http://www.hammerman.com

800-783-2269

 

[AEldridge]

Hi All,

Wow - this must be one of the most active threads on this site!! ;-)

Firstly, there was a posting earlier inquiring about the edition of CR included with VS.NET. You can find a detailed description of the licensing for this edition at

http://www.crystaldecisions.com/products/crystalreports/net/licensing.asp

Secondly, in response to Howard Hammerman's comment:
And, yes, it may be time to re-think the effectiveness of Crystal Reports. We use C.R. as a prototyping tool and then take the logic from the report and create active server pages which we can deploy endlessly without licensing worries.

I re-iterate the points I made in my last post... using Crystal Reports for developing web reports is significantly more productive than using traditional ASP/JSP techniques because:

1. To develop an ASP/JSP report, you must either have developer skills inhouse, or you must hire a consultant (like Hammerman & Co) to do the work for you. Not just the initial development but every time you wish to have a new report or modify an existing report. With Crystal Reports, you do not need to know how to cut code to create reports. With a bit of training you could have someone from your finance department happily knocking out their own reports.

2. Consider the productivity factor - and remember time is money. If something takes me 2 hours to do in ASP/JSP then I could probably do it in a couple of minutes in Crystal Reports. Orders of magnitude faster = orders of magnitude cheaper!!!

3. Consider the sophisticated infrastructure that includes page on demand, report streaming, multiple format exports, etc - there is no way you could develop an ASP-based solution (our hire a consultant to develop one for you) with all these features for the same cost as deploying Crystal Reports.



At the end of the day I challenge anyone to show me a scalable, supportable, web-based reporting infrastructure that is more cost effective and has a better return on investment story than the Crystal product family. I can't think of any.

Cheers, Alan Eldridge
Melbourne, Australia

 

[mctaylor]

I have to say that I think this is all still pretty unsatisfactory!

I've been looking at CrystalClear (

http://www.inetsoftware.de)

as an alternative way of running reports on demand in a variety of different deployment scenarios, including web server/servlet based. This product reads the RPT files themselves and executes the report with its own engine - it does not use any Crystal Decisions I.P. to do it. (I guess they must have reverse-engineered the RPT format). They have their own report viewer applet that operates very similarly to the C.D. applet viewer.

So - do the CBL provisions in the Crystal Reports 8.5 license apply in this context or not? No broadcast is taking place as such...

Milton Taylor

 

[kenhamady]

I think you are in a grey area. If Crystal Clear doesn't use the runtime engine at all, then you may not be under the server based system portion of the license.

But, even though you are not using a Crystal engine to run the reports, you will still create the original RPT with a Crystal Decisions product. To use Crystal Reports you have to accept their license terms which includes their limits on distribution.

Simply making a report availble to more than 50 uers can be considered a broadcast, but only if this is done "automatically and/or regularly". Broadcast is typically concerned with output (like an exported file) but covers anything created with CR, inlcuding RPT files. If you post the RPT once, and they run it on demand, you might not have an 'automated distribution system'. Of course the terms are somewhat subjective, and a lawyer can challenge anything in a gray area.
Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

tek@kenhamady.com

 

[mctaylor]

Yes Ken - I agree that it is indeed a "grey" area. However, I don't think the license term is enforceable in the context I have described.

(I don't think it makes any difference whether it's a report-on-demand scenario or an automated distribution of a report output. This is not material to my argument.)

The actual license agreement in Ver 8.5 Pro says:

4.4 Report Distribution System. If you use the Software to create a Report Distribution System, you must acquire a Crystal Broadcast License....

In 8.5 Developer it is slightly different:

4.3 Creation of Report Distribution System. If you use the Software or Runtime Software, together or separately or in combination with Server Environments, to create a Report Distribution System, you must acquire a Crystal Broadcast License...

Crystal will probably argue that if you use the design tools to create an RPT file (but nothing else, i.e. no part of the Developer SDK for example) that you have still "used the Software to create a Report Distribution System".

I would mount an argument that I have NOT used the design tool to create a report distribution system, but merely to create an RPT file.

To see how absurd this situation looks in practice:

Say I create an RPT file. Whilst I may not 'own' the RPT file format, I believe that the RPT file is still an original work under the Copyright laws. Since I have not assigned the copyright of it to Crystal, I actually believe that I have the legal right to copy the RPT file and give it to whoever I like.

Now, suppose I give it to someone who has the ability to do something with that RPT file without using any Crystal Decisions software. (Which in itself I don't believe is illegal, since I believe that reverse engineering for this purpose is explicitly permitted under the Copyright law).

If you accept my previous argument, then the person I gave the RPT file to is not bound by any terms of my Crystal license agreement at all! (Once again, provided they have not used any Crystal Decisions software).

So, by reduction, I should be able to do the same thing myself.

I'm not a lawyer by the way, but I'd be interested to see if any lawyers out there disagreed with my analysis...