Export reports to HTML? You may owe $10K per year. 12

[kenhamady]

You have to be careful to distinguish between royalties and a broadcast license.

You don't need royalties for distributing the application. However, you are not distributing an app, you are making reports available to many people. The way I have read the license you will either get a limit on the number of concurrent users who can run reports, or you will need a broadcast license. I would clarify this with them in terms of a Crystal Broadcast License (CBL).
If they put it in writing you should be safe, regardless of what the wording of the license is. I have a letter that says I don't need a CBL, but I think the license actually says otherwise. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[lalato]

So, basically, what you're saying is that I might be better off buying a bunch of copies of CR Professional for my end users instead of trying to distribute reports to them via the web.

My company has been seriously considering adding web reporting, but if it costs that much, I can't see us doing it.

We already have a few hundred Crystal Pro licenses floating around my company. The problem is that 75% of those are being used by people that will never design a report. That's why we were considering web reporting.

Even if there was an open source or less expensive solution out there, you would still run into the problem of distributing your report to more than 50 people.

I don't currently use VB, but I wonder how this affects those that create VB apps that run Crystal Reports. Is there something in the VB license that overides this part of the Crystal License?

--sam

 

[balves]

Why did you buy hundreds of Crystal Pro licenses?

In the past...

If you had 5 Crystal developers, you could buy 5 Pro licenses, have the developers build a VB / Crystal application and roll-out that application to N users in your company. As far as I know, you can continue to do that without any licensing concerns (provided you don't use the RDC technology to create reports at run-time).

 

[lalato]

It wasn't my decision to buy that many licenses. We originally bought them at v6 about 3 years ago when I was just a tech... Since then, most, if not all, of those licenses have been upgraded to v8... again not my decision.

I really don't think the higher ups in our IT department understood the concept of scalability and treated Crystal Reports as if it were just another office app... like a word processor or spreadsheet.

However, the issue isn't so much that we have all of these copies of CR (and I wasn't exagerating... we really do have a couple hundred). The issue is... in hindsight was this actually a better decision than to pay x dollars per year for the right to distribute our reports to that many users.

If what you're saying is true... that VB somehow overides this by letting you design an app that will run however many reports... and distribute that app to any number of people... then I'll go buy a copy of VB tomorrow. ;-)

Thanks for your help,
--sam

 

[kenhamady]

There is a subtle (but important) difference between distributing an application that can run reports, and automatically distributing completed reports or report output. Reports distributed to be run from an application aren't considered a broadcast of a report.

However, if you sent your 50 users an updated RPT every month, so they could run the new report within their application, that seems to me to put you back under the broadcast license. The web isn't really the prime consideratiion. Any method of automatically distributing REPORTS can make you liable for broadcast license. The engine to run reports can be distributed via VB apps or via Compiled reports. It is the reports themselves that can't be broadcast. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[lalato]

Hmmm... that's amazing to me. I can't think how many times I've updated a report and placed it on a server or e-mailed it so that other users would have access to it. I don't think that we update reports as regularly as would require a broadcast license.

But I know of some folks who distribute reports with the data saved at least once a week that might run into this problem. I guess it depends on how many people they are distributing the report to each time.

However, simply creating an app that will run the report will obviate me of the need to have a broadcast license regardless of the number of end users? Whoa... It's definitely time to enroll in a VB class.

BTW, Ken, I was a student of yours 3 1/2 years ago when I first learned CR... Great class!!!
--sam

 

[kenhamady]

Thanks. I was probably teaching a class for Chubb or Comp USA back then. Yes broadcast only applies to over 50 end users, but they are mushy on what 'automated and/or regular' is supposed to mean. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[kenhamady]

Well, I finally got a clear answer from Crystal Decisions. The entire Email dialogue is now posted on my web site. The answer seems to contradict their license wording (IMHO) but they have now made it clear, in writing, that they only count AUTOMATIC distribution.

So, if you do what I do, with a manual step, then it doesn't matter:

1) How many users see or receive the file
2) How 'regularly' you do it
3) How big your company is

While I still don't like the fact that there are restrictions on automatic distribution of my own data file, I at least like the direction things are moving. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[JamesFlowers]

Could you please clarify something if possible:

"Reports distributed to be run from an application aren't considered a broadcast of a report. "

does this apply to a product built specifically by you (or third party) that includes CR runtime structures.

We have an ERP system that uses standard CR's to be run everyday by up to 50 users (maybe more), as this reports hasnt been updated (changed in functionality) in a few months (thank god less work for me), does this mean we are safe from this issue or do you mean updated as in content.

Regards on what has been an interesting and informative (and slightly worrying) thread

James Flowers

http://www.trikon.com

 

[kenhamady]

I think their intent was to cover the broadcast of content, but the license does say anything created with CR, which could be taken to include the RPT itself.

Logically, though, the RPT modifications would have to involve a manual step to make the changes, save them, and initiate distribution. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[Guest_imported]

Here's a twist to the plot. We think that if you are using frames, one connection may need as many as there are frames. At $3.5k a go, it gets worse!!!

Any thoughts???

Reading this lot, our conclusion is that Crystal is non viable from here-on in.

Chris Hibbert

 

[kenhamady]

Make sure you call them before you make a decision. Either they will give you a workable solution, or they will get to hear first hand about why you are choosing to look elsewhere. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[lalato]

I just want to get something straight.

If I run a report, export to .pdf, and upload it to an intranet site... Even if it is intended for 100 users, I won't be violating my license.

However, if I devise a process that will automatically run the report, export it to .pdf, and upload it to the site, I will be violating the license only if it is used by more than 50 users

Thanks,
--sam

 

[kenhamady]

Yep, that is what I was told. The key is manual intervention. You can read what they wrote on my web site under the heading "fine print". I even told them I was posting the results to make sure that they gave me a well thought out answer. Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[Guest_imported]

Has anyone tried to run the reports that monitor Crystal Enterprise Web Connections?

We have found that none of them work anyway - String is not numeric error.

Chris Hibbert

 

[kenhamady]

Chris, could you post this in the CR Enterprise forum? Ken Hamady, On-site/Phone Crystal Reports Training/Consulting
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB

http://www.kenhamady.com/

 

[HowardHammerman]

Hello Everybody,

I am sorry I was not aware of this thread earlier. Let me give some first hand information about a fellow that has so far received three letter from the Crystal Decisions lawyers.

It started when I had agreed to give a workshop at the Crystal Decisions User Group of North America meeting in Phoenix in May. My talk was titled, "Utilities to use with Crystal Reports". You can find the slides on my web site.

About two weeks before the meeting I got a letter from C.D. telling me not to talk about two utilities:

a) Crystal Desk
b) Cizer

Crystal Desk is a $295 utiltility that loads on a desktop (not a server) and can be scheduled to run a batch of reports either exporting to one of Crystal's formats or to the printer.

Cizer is a $8000 server program that can do the same but show the reports on the web. It can also broadcast the reports to a database of email addresses. The folks who wrote cizer know about the licenses (they have gotten letters also) so they limit the program to Version 7 of Crystal.

I gave the talk anyway but I had to make sure I told people about the broadcast license requirements.

I have since been on many sales calls involving Crystal Enterprise. Here are some observations:

a) Once company in the mid-west spent $1.25 million for Crystal Enterprise licenses.

b) No where on the C.D. web site will you find the price of Crystal Enterprise. You can find it in the FAQ section of my web site.

c) Never pay the price they ask. Crystal licenses are sold in the same way items are sold at a yard sale. You have to negotitate.

There are an increasing number of companies coming up with alternative ways of web-enabling Crystal reports or just creating a similar reporting engine. For some reports, Excel makes an excellent reporting tool. Active server pages can often do the job.

Ken's research on the difference between what they say and what they mean is instructive. He was wrong about the '30 day license'. If you get Crystal 8.5 professional or developer you get a five user version of Crystal Enterprise Standard Edition. If you register it, you have the software. Ken was right about the cost of additional licenses.

In addition to the basic license they 'strongly suggest' that you get a maintenance license. That costs 20% of the base license.

Many of my clients are staying with Version 7 to avoid the hassel.

Anyway, we added text to the readme file of Crystal Desk to warn users about the license requirement.
Crystal Reports training, consulting, books, training material and on-site support. Scheduled training in 8 cities.

http://www.hammerman.com

800-783-2269

 

[AEldridge]

Hi Howard,

Some comments on your post:

1. There are companies that have spent much more than $1.25M for Crystal Enterprise. But then again, there are companies that have spent 10 times that for Excel, and there are companies that have paid many millions for web-based information delivery sites using ASP/JSP.

When these companies buy Crystal Enterprise, they are not buying a product for delivering one or two reports, but rather an enterprise-level information publishing and management system. Think of it like Lotus Domino - it is infrastructure software that can be used to integrate reporting and analysis into any application (fat client or web-based). It can scale to support many thousands of concurrent users, can be configured as a fault-tolerant architecture and can be easily customised to meet specific needs. They can also use it to publish Crystal Report files from any of their applications that OEM

When you look at a major corporation, it is easy to justify that kind of money when the return will be several times the investment.


2. Yes - you can often do much the same in Excel or ASP/JSP, but one of the key reasons people buy Crystal Reports is that their productivity is much greater. Let's go back to Ken's original scenario - you want to put a birthday list on your web site. With Crystal Reports, I could literally do this in 60 seconds - build the report and publish it to Crystal Enterprise.

With ASP/JSP I could probably do the same in about an hour or two (I have to admit it's not my strongest point). So on the bare face of it, I am 60-120 times more productive already. Add in some logos, a picture of each employee and maybe a chart showing number of birthdays per month - it now takes me two minutes in Crystal Reports but all day in code. Then if you try to replicate the inherited benefits of Crystal Enterprise (scalability, page-on-demand, fault-tolerance, etc) then it would probably take me all week.

It's like programming - if developers can do everything they want in GNU C++ which costs nothing, why do so many of them pay for VisualBasic? Because they are much more productive when developing in an environment where they don't have to build everything from the ground up.


3. You are correct that you won't find the price of Crystal Enterprise on the CD web site, but this is nothing surprising. You won't find the prices of Microstrategy, Brio, Business Objects, Cognos, etc on their web sites either. It's not unusual for major software companies to keep the price of their enterprise software off their web sites for competitive reasons.

And you are right about the negitiation re: price. You won't pay list price for a car, so why should you for software? You can even try negotiating over the price of a copy of Crystal Reports, but the margin there is much lower so you probably won't save quite as much ;-)



At the end of they day you are right - there are many tools available for delivering reports over the web. If you have a very simple requirement then it is possible that other approaches could be more cost effective - either Excel or maybe using ASP to read records from an ADO recordset.

But don't forget to include productivity in your cost measures - something that takes you an hour might take me a minute. And as your requirements become more complex, the amount of effort required with either raw code or simple tools will increase far more dramatically than the effort required with Crystal products.

I hope this helps.

Cheers, Alan Eldridge
Melbourne, Australia

 

[Guest_imported]

Hi AEldridge,

I completely agree with you that big companies would get there's money worth buying CE; However how about the middle type bussinesses which is a pretty big market to ignore. By setting the CE's price too high they already filtered-out there clients that has stayed to them for so long.

best regards,
Bernard

Philippines

 

[DaveHowe]

Hmm.
As disgusted as I am by this change, I am wondering about the five concurrent user CE licence that comes bundled with CR - I have bought *12* full Pro copies and one development - as I doubt any system I put together would ever have more than five concurrent users. and that should give me 65.... would those licences be valid for a web site with reports on it?
I notice also that SAP are now pushing CR as their preferred reporting solution - are they aware of these new licencing restrictions and what effect would this have on use of CR+SAP (we are a SAP site here)