Export reports to HTML? You may owe $10K per year. 12

[kenhamady]

Pretend you have a monthly birthday list in Crystal and you export the results to HTML. Then you post the page on a web site each month so all of your colleagues can see whose birthday is coming up this month. If there are likely to be 51 people seeing that report, then you owe $10,000 per year to Crystal Decisions. This was a new "feature" added with V8.

You have to read the license carefully. Pull out the CD for V8 and look in the folder called license for license.RTF file. License point 2.6 defines a "report" as anything that you create with Crystal Reports, regardless of the format. This includes an HTML export or even a text export. According to point 2.7 you need a broadcast license if you use a "report delivery system". This is defined as anything that makes a report available "automatically and/or regularly" to a location where more than 50 people can reasonably be expected to view it.

Because monthly can be considered "regularly", and because you can "reasonably expect" over 50 viewers, you need the "Broadcast License". The minimum charge for a broadcast license is $10,000 for 51 - 100 viewers. It can go up to $25,000 if you have more likely viewers. I originally found the cost numbers on their website and then confirmed these numbers with a call to Seagate. Since my call, I can no longer find the number on the website.

This seemed pretty expensive to me. After all, this is charging you for posting your own content, not Seagate's reporting software. So, I called Seagate and they admitted that I was "technically" correct in my interpretation of the license. They tried to assure me that they would never enforce the license in the scenario that I described, but I am not sure that their lawyers will put that in writing. I am also not sure that people will want to risk that kind of exposure. I understand that they are trying to prevent some huge corporation from leveraging one designer license into the core of some monster report delivery system. I just think the lawyers went too far with the concept.

Part of my concern is that I missed this in my upgrade, and I am confident that I am not alone. Anyone else miss this? I think if enough people question this wording, they might change it to something more reasonable. Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

Crystal Reports Training/Consulting and a
Quick Reference Guide to VB/Crystal (including ADO)

 

[MarkSweetland]

I've yet to figure out the Concurrent Users portion of Section 4.2 which tells me I have the right to allow Access to the Server Software (rptserver.asp) or Server Applications for up to, but not exceeding, the number of Concurrent Users authorized in the file “Server.hlp” (five).

Is a user of a web page that returns a report still 'connected' until the Web Server Component timeout period expires or is the user 'disconnected' when the report is delivered? What identifies a user- IP address, Login info?

If you want to exceed the number of users authorized to Access the Server Software or Server Applications in the file “Server.hlp”, you must acquire additional Access Licenses as a stand-alone offering (which I have only found briefly mentioned on their web site; along with the absence of pricing information.)

All in all the licensing mumbo jumbo is some of the worst I've seen yet. And if the license specifies a particular Access upgrade requirement, I'd sure like to see the price before I commit to the upgrade...

Mark

 

[bburnell]

Wow!
What a bunch of baloney. They need to change that. I'm sure every business that uses CR has exceeded the "max users allowed" license the way they worded it. Thanks Ken for the info!
Brett Please visit my websites!

http://www.b2ksolutions.net

http://smsforce.virtualave.net

http://www.goodguyz.com

 

[shweta]

This is really a serious issue!

What if the report is exported to a file and then the file is copied to another with some minor tweaks. Does that mean it is STILL a crystal export? I mean how can they classify what is and what is not an exported file?!

 

[SApple]

I was with some Crystal Decisions folks yesterday in a user group meeting and the question of licensing came up in regards to Crystal Enterprise (the successor to Info). You can either get named licenses (for $595 each), concurrent licenses, or a combo of both. Using as an example 25 concurrent licenses, they explained that 25 people can log onto Crystal Enterprises. The 26th person will have to wait for one person to log off before they can log on. And the cost for 25 concurrent licenses is $87,500 or, as they figured out, roughly $3,500 per logon. Yikes! No one had the nerve to ask if this was a one-time or yearly cost...

 

[kenhamady]

At my first and only user's group meeting (DC Area), Seagate staff stated explicitly that the focus of the user group was larger "enterprise level" organizations, as opposed to individual users and small companies. That is probably why I didn't even hear about that meeting except here in Tek-Tips.

The pricing model you mention also suggests that they are trying to compete more with Impromtu and Actuate. Their worst nightmare seems to be one licensed user in a large organization. Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

Crystal Reports Training/Consulting and a
Quick Reference Guide to VB/Crystal (including ADO)

 

[kridg]

I have spoken to Crystal Decisions reps twice today, and am more irritated now than when I started. It is still about as clear as mud.

I suggested that they make an effort to provide a clear explanation so that they wouldn't be getting questions. The response was less than acceptable.

If I'm the only one with questions and concerns, fine, I'll be quiet and go to my corner. If not, then if they get enough phone calls or e-mails on this subject they may be enticed to clarify it.

 

[BR549]

Ken:
Any new information on this?

 

[kenhamady]

Not yet,
(BR549, can I assume that you grew up watching too much TV like me?)

So far I have gone up three levels at Seagate, and had a conference call with two people on 3/13. I got a call on 3/19 saying that the guy working on my question was off for a week, and would call me when he returned.

I probably could have gotten a quicker answer, but I mentioned that the answer would be posted in a forum with thousands of members. That may have pushed it to a higher level of review.

If you don't like the idea of paying to use your own exported content, you should send that message to Seagate, now Crystal Decisions. You can call them at (800)877-2340. Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

Crystal Reports Training/Consulting and a
Quick Reference Guide to VB/Crystal (including ADO)

 

[MarkSweetland]

As a side-bar, anyone else read Section 16:

"Audit. During the term of the License Agreement and for three(3) years after termination or expiration, you will maintain complete records regarding your use and distribution of the Software. Upon reasonable notice to you, Crystal may audit, at Crystal's expense, your books and records to determine your compliance hereunder..."

And how, pray tell, am I supposed find time to maintain (much less create) books on the use of the Software ?


Mark

 

[kenhamady]

I read about Virginia Beach. There office got audited by Microsoft and couldn't produce purchase documentation for all of their software. They paid over $100,000 to settle with Uncle Bill because it was cheaper to settle than to pull all of the documentation.
It is risky to assume that the license provision won't affect you. Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

Crystal Reports Training/Consulting and a
Quick Reference Guide to VB/Crystal (including ADO)

 

[kenhamady]

Also, be careful when you buy 8.5. It says you can do wonderful things with enterprise. However, the 5 enterprise seats are only 30 day evals.

The pricing on a concurent seat is roughly $3500 per seat, and I beleive there is a minimum of 25 seats. Someone can tell me if these numbers are wrong. I am still waiting to hear from Seagate on the original question. Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

Crystal Reports Training/Consulting and a
Quick Reference Guide to VB/Crystal (including ADO)

 

[breeves30]

Ken,

We're considering a product called Trinity Web for Crystal Reports distribution, and plan to use Crystal Reports 8. We're choosing this direction because of the cost quoted by Seagate ($87,000 for a 25 concurrent-user license of Crystal Info) as opposed to approximately $10,000 for Trinity Web.

I am concerned about the licensing issue you've raised here. We're currently on Crystal Reports 6.0/Crystal Info 6.0 in production and are having significant problems with consistency of generating reports, and need to do something desperately.

 

[gowest]

Ken,

I've read this thread with interest as we were currently evaluating Crystal reports as an alternative to Oracle Reports Developer 6i.

An interesting situation could be with point 2.7 whereby we generate client communication reports to specific clients and deliver them over the web. As such each report is specific to each client and hence only has one person who can view it. It really comes down to the definition of what a report is, and what a client is.

Your thoughts ?
Steve

 

[balves]

I have the paper license agreements from V8.5 that came with the Developers Edition in front of me.

The 8.5 Developer Edition license states in Section 5.2.1 that I have right to deploy a web application for 5 concurrent users. Section 5.2.2 then states that I have no right to distribute a web application. I take that to mean (reading between the lines) that I have no right to build and sell an application to users that contains Crystal web reporting. Perhaps I am incorrect in this assumption.

The Crystal Enterprise license states in Section 4.4 that I have no right to use Enterprise for a reporting system that serves greater than 50 users. If so, I need to purchase a Crystal Broadcast License as a separate product.

The Crystal web site contains NO info on what a Crystal Broadcast License really is or costs:

http://www.crystaldecisions.com/products/crystalreports/licensing/broadcastfaq.asp

I guess they will make up the $$ for each customer as they see fit, in the Microsoft tradition of discrimatory pricing. Brian J. Alves
Terrier Consulting, Inc.
Email: brian.alves@worldnet.att.net
VB / Crystal / SQLServer

 

[gowest]

I have checked my approach re having specific client communication type reports presented to specific clients on the Web. It is Crystal's position that this does necessitate additional licensing of either using a Crystal delivery tool (with associated licenses) or getting a broadcast license which costs (for our volumes) $100k per annum.

Based on this pricing we have passed over Crystal Reports for standardisation of our reporting tools. :-(

 

[kenhamady]

I trust that you let them know that.
I also hope that a few other folks will give them feedback. I think that their restrictions on broadcasting an EXPORTED file (including text) is off the scale. Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

On-site custom Crystal Reports Training and Consulting.
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB.

 

[AEldridge]

Hi All,

I'd like to throw in my $0.02. And as you can see, talk is cheap ;-)

Crystal Broadcast License
Ken Hamady opened the thread with questions about the Crystal Broadcast License (CBL). The CBL was introduced in CR8 and you can find the definition in section 2.5 of the CR8 EULA, or section 2.2 of the CR8.5 EULA. In plain terms, it states that if you use CR to generate reports (in whatever format - RPT, PDF, XLS…) and then you regularly and/or automatically distribute these reports to more than 50 people, then you need to purchase a license to do so. That's the cold, hard, legal interpretation…

In reality, the purpose of the CBL is not to restrict an individual user from posting a birthday list, as Ken uses as an example, but rather to prevent organisation from circumventing the other license types. Crystal Decisions have invested a huge amount of money and effort in producing a world-leading product, and they need to protect that investment so they can continue to innovate. Just because you bypass the standard client interfaces (eg. Web component server, Crystal Enterprise, CR Report Designer) that doesn't mean you get to use the core technology carte blanche.

The CBL is sold in tiered increments - 0-50 users is free, 50-500 users is tier 1, 500-1500 is tier 2, and above 1500 users is tier 3. And as pointed out by Ken - the CBL is an annual fee - not a perpetual license (like a copy of CR). I suggest you contact Crystal Decisions directly if you are looking for $$ values - it’s likely that you will be able to negotiate something better than RRP.

As for the argument that you are being charged to present your own content - well, that is just frivolous. You have created and generated the report using Crystal technology and therefore must pay for the use of such. Try telling Oracle that you don't want to pay for their DBMS because the data you are querying is your content...

And speaking of DBMS vendors, you will find similar broadcast clauses in most enterprise software EULAs these days - both MSFT and ORCL (not politically popular examples, I know, but relevant) have them in their DBMS licenses.

At the end of the day, Crystal Decisions are not going to try to police the 50 user CBL criteria for all small users of Crystal Reports - it's clearly not possible to do so. It is there to protect against license avoidance by web broadcasters and larger corporations.

Concurrent User Licensing
MarkSweetland expressed concern that he does not have the time to keep track of the license use of the software - and fair enough. But this is not something you need to do manually - in CR8 there are three reports that are by default installed to C:\Program Files\Seagate Software\WCS\. Running these reports regularly will show the max number of concurrent users by day, week and month. By checking these reports periodically, you can ensure your compliance with your license count.

Alternately in CR8.5, the revised Automation Server will enforce compliance by restricting the number of concurrent sessions to that for which you are licensed.

Overall, one of the reasons for the change in the way Crystal Reports is licensed is that it has evolved from being a desktop user's tool with limited ability to integrate and deliver information, and is now an integral part of an enterprise reporting suite. The capability of the product has increased significantly since V7 - the web distribution engine in CR8.5 is now more than 20x more scalable, there are many more API calls available, the Report Designer has more features than ever before… The software is now enterprise-level software and is priced as such.



Finally, I'd like to close with one of my pet gripes - although it is common practice for software users not to read the license when they install software, ignorance of the terms and conditions is no defence for license violation. The EULA is a legally binding contract, and by clicking on the "I Accept" button, you do just that - accept the license. You wouldn't buy a car or sign any other paper contract without reading the fine print, so why do people argue that this is different?

Thanks and regards, Alan Eldridge
Melbourne, Australia

 

[kenhamady]

Alan,

Thank you for making my primary point. You have made the key distinction in your first 2 paragraphs, the difference between what the license SAYS and what they INTEND. They have written me that they don't INTEND the CBL to apply to me in my situation. But, unfortunately, no matter how much they dance around it, the license wording DOES cover the scenario I have outlined. Please tell me if you disagree. As long as one is speaking English I could be considered 'regularly' doing it. They picked lousy wording if they didn't want it to apply to my situation.

My point is that they can't have it both ways. You can't use one wording and then tell everyone that it only applies when we want it to apply.

Your Oracle example misses the point. Even if my data is created in Oracle, using a VB program and extracted with MS Access. If I extract it to a text delimited file, none of them tries to control what I do with that file. That is what CD is doing by defining an export as a report.

I will grant you that I didn't read the V8 license as carefully as I should have. I missed that one definition.

Ken Hamady

http://www.kenhamady.com/

On-site custom Crystal Reports Training and Consulting.
Quick Reference Guide to using Crystal in VB.

 

[hmohrmann]

We are currently using version 7 and and are preparing to upgrade to 8.5. We distribute off a web server using ASP and Crystal Reports Automation Server, and according to Crystal there is no limitation on users (we have 6000) and no cost.

Crystal has even told us that using this format we could upgrade to 8.5 with no royalty costs. Only using the new features such as runtime report creation require royalty payments.

Let me include the quote that Crystal sent me from the license agreement:

For existing users of Crystal Reports Professional (any version earlier than Version 8) please note that your range of rights for report design as well as for runtime distribution of client applications have not changed, so upgrading client applications will still be royalty free. Only when you take advantage of the new report creation features below will a royalty be required.
Runtime files:
CRAXDRT.DLL
CRYSTALWIZARD.DLL