Estimating large cable project labor metrics

[ddobb]

It seems that the multitude of contributors to the cabling forum price there project based on a per drop price. Usually in the $100 to $150 a single drop for Cat5e plenum. I am guessing this is for around a 150’ run in a typical office environment.

I am wondering what higher level metrics you use when bidding a very competitive large cable project over 1000 drops. In these cases I build the labor and materials separately and use a per foot labor calculator for the runs. I also check to see how many cables are going to be following the same path for time efficiencies.

Does anyone else out there use these methods and what your per foot rates are? Also if you simply use a different rate for duals, triples, quads, etc. Or if you use an add cable multiplier?

Here are some of the numbers I have used for the simple act of pulling the cable whether it is Cat5e or Cat6. This does not include: termination time at each end, dressing cables at head-end, labeling, or testing. Those are all static factors that can easily be added on to the overall labor per cable.

Single = .0056 per foot
Dual = .0095 per foot
Triple = .0128 per foot
Quad = .0175 per foot

Do you add any additional time for cube furniture?

The last topic that does not make sense in the cable estimation world is using per outlet metrics when determining the amount of labor time. There isn’t a cable technician out there that is going to make 10 separate dual runs to a group of 10 cubes needing 2 cables each. That tech is going to find 10 boxes of cables and make 2 runs of 10 cables. If the tech could find 20 boxes they would pull all the cables at once. There are time efficiencies in this and it seems that as estimators we are not properly capturing this in the bids.

Thanks in advance for everyone’s input.

 

[Deweyhumbolt]

Definitely increase labor for cubes. You need to stage it, then have a meet with the cubicle builders, then lace cubicles, and finally terminate, test, and desi underneath cubicles. 25% more labor.

Adversity is Opportunity

 

[oldtimerbob]

Normally,pulling the cable is the cheapest part of the job as techs do indeed pull as many cables as they can at once to a group,under the assumption that it will take the same time to pull 10 as it would one cable,just the amount of cable changes. For this reason I do not use the cost per foot for labor to install the cabling itself.

But if you do,the cost for 10 cables to be pulled is about 4 cents a foot (3(one to feed the cables from the boxes and two to actually pull the cables)) techs X $20.00 ea per hour= $60.00 for one hour (average time for 150 ft run,including labing the cables)60 /10/150= cost.

I use the above labor cost for this example only, real cost will depend upon the labor used and their pay scale.

what will raise the cost for larger projects are the amount of cables that can be in a bundle to be hung,or if in trays,and the cost of installing the supports and dressing the cabing into them.
The type of workstation such as cubicles do take longer when 'dropping' the cables to the workstation location,and you will have to add some time. This time can be cut down by working with the cubicle people to insert your cable just after the cubicle walls are erected but before the table tops,cabinets,and electrical etc are attached.
Good Luck,

Has been in the cabling business for about twenty years and is now the Sr PM for a cabling company located in the Los Angeles area.

http://www.globusinc.net

Also a General Class Amatuer Radio Operator.

 

[CTCINY]

I usually do a price per drop labor cost. It also depends on how the cables are going to be running, tray, j-hooks, etc. Like oldtimerbob said, it will take the same amount of time to pull 10 cables or 1 cable if they are all going to the same location. Also, take into account that if the locations are piped it will take less time.

Cubes also take more time. I usually build in 1 hour per cube. I also build in extra cable in case those cubes move during construction and have to be terminated at a longer length than originally anticipated.

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.---George Carlin

 

[buitenhek]

The Commish is wise ! If this were the Miller Beer commercial than there is only one beer to drink “after” you finish the cable proposal.

This is clearly not the case. There are many enjoyable beers and many ways to look at a cable pulling projects.

1. If you bought 1 box of cable for each location than economies of scale based on number of cables to a location would be easily calculable. However, you would have lots of partial boxes and you would likely be the high bidder.
2. Good PM’s devise an install plan based on cable quantities AND routes. This is based largely on pulling long cables first to reduce “waste” cable boxes. You pull the long one first; than get the boxes and reset for pull 2 and 3 etc. This in-between-time must be added to the first pull or is the second ??? In any case, you would average the pull time for sake of argument.
3. Some pull from the MDF to the location and some pull from the location to the MDF. I’m still trying to grasp a difference there.

Think of yourself as a surgeon: One gallbladder surgery is $xxx and one appendix is $yyy. Both at the same time are not less than the sum of both.
My car dealer loves the book on repair times and adds the amounts. When I ask about economies of scale he says: “It is a good idea to do some other things while we have the engine apart. However, think of yourself as a surgeon…..”

I do commend you on the vision and I will see if my program has the common sense to look at scaling.

The keys are: how you see the job, winning bids, making a profit and repeat business.


Regards
Peter Buitenhek
ProfitDeveloper.com

"Never settle for a job well done...always look for cost cutting measures

 

[ddobb]

buitenhek,

Thank you for the insightful response. Actually what prompted the submission was the fact that I ran into the car dealer method last week. A subcontractor I was going to hire told me that he estimates all of his labor pricing based on the BOM. Similar to how a auto service shop prices putting in a new steering gear. The book says 2 hours, if they get it done in 1hr than hooray for them.

Since I do estimating for a national provider and must use local subcontractors for labor I run into many different pricing methods.

I like the gall bladder analogy but I have to disagree on the fact that doing 4 cables at the same time would not be less than doing 4 individual runs.

If you have used the cable pricing software that is floating around out there they have all kinds of metrics for the labor. I was wondering if anyone has used these methods and if they have been effective in winning projects?

In my case I not only have to estimate a project and sell it to the customer - I have to sell it to the subcontractor to get them to agree to my costs.

Thanks again.

 

[buitenhek]

ddobb,
1.I agree that "economy of scale" is a definite factor. I have updated my software to include it.
Cable Pull (only)
1-3 100%
greater than 3-5 99%
greater than 5-10 97%
greater than 10-15 95%
greater than 15-20 90%
greater than 20 80%

2.I also believe a bump should exist if you use different grade boxes of cable (CAT5e CAT6 Fiber etc):
=2 different cables boxes add 1.5 minute per pull
=3 diff boxes add 2 minutes per pull

3.I also added termination time based on #pairs
Voice or Data
1pr 79% 2pr 85% 3pr 94% 4pr 100%
Fiber termination will remain at 100%

Your thoughts?

Regards
Peter Buitenhek
ProfitDeveloper.com

"Never settle for a job well done...always look for cost cutting measures

 

[Synacom]

I have not broken anything down to the "per foot" charge, am currently using the industry standard 100' drop as my starting point. I recently submitted a bid for a job that consists of just over 3500 drops and here are my variables.

My standard cable is plenum so the bid spec for plenum does not change my base. All thru-walls require fire stopping so this is my first add. All ceilings are drop with existing cable trays. J-hooks are included in my base if they were needed here. No ceilings are over 10' so no multiplier for larger ladders and more climbing. Certain areas are to be done after hours so I increase the labor allocated per drop. The average drop is 185' so there is a multiplier of the base 100'. Maintenance and warehouse areas require conduit and a lift. Lift charges are spread across the project and conduit is bid per foot.

I would like to see what everyone feels is an appropriate charge per foot and also what area they are in. My coverage is from NE Ohio across NW PA and across NY state but not NYC.

 

[buitenhek]

Ha!, Child's Play !
3500 V/D drops, 185' average, plenum($0.214/ft)
not included in price: firestop, ceiling trays, lifts etc.

Sell: $688,335.03 Cost: $468,308.98 Profit: $222,026.05
Faceplate Cost/Drop:~$135 Sell/Drop:~$200
Gross Profit Margin: 32% ROI: 47%
~1,295,000 feet CAT6 plenum, 7000 CAT6 Jacks ($4.95 each)
6045 hangers ($2.10 each), 195 runs (302.25 hrs)
16-900pr CAT6 blocks, 1-200pr CAT6 block
36-96 port CAT6 panel, 1-48 port panel
112,000 terminations (if you're counting), 4 VD left over
Calculated Labor = 3,930.583 hrs
~2520hrs pull, ~816hrs Term/Test/Doc ~291hrs Faceplate


Regards
Peter Buitenhek
ProfitDeveloper.com

"Never settle for a job well done...always look for cost cutting measures

 

[acableconnection]

buitenhek- difference between pulling from mdf or pulling to mdf. If you do it the old school way, pulling from the mdf, you never have to move your boxes/reels of cable. That takes time when your talking about 10-20 boxes of cable, for every pull..
Also, no estimating of how much cable you will need at every location.

 

[buitenhek]

Thanks acableconnection:
When we did 100's of location pulls we found it easier to place boxes at the user locations and pull to MDF. Usually because they gave us such a small place.
However, it is very true that we cut the cable longer than required (10% on average) because of MDF layout or cubicle design uncertainty.
Do you have any "boiler plate" pull times & cable values that can be compared or discussed?

Regards
Peter Buitenhek
ProfitDeveloper.com

"Never settle for a job well done...always look for cost cutting measures