ERP Future? 4

[SgtPepps]

I'm not sure if this is the best forum for my question but does anyone know of any UK based Indpendant ERP Consultants? We are looking for opinions on the future of the ERP market, obviously i'd like to know any opinions you may have on the subject too.

Read this for more Info

http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20030618S0012

Regards

Mike

Hold the Wheel and drive

 

[chiph]

I've got a friend who has been in various positions over the years in manufacturing, from purchasing to materials planner, from soft goods to automotive.

He says the problem with ERP software is that it's buggy, clunky, way too expensive, attempts to do too much, takes too long to implement, and is not comprehendible by the average shop floor worker.

So, I think there's some customer pain there that could be solved by the right package!

Chip H.

 

[byteofram]

ERP packages are only as good as you make them. ERP systems are diffently not going anywhere...matter of fact they are becoming more prevelant here in the states. I manage an ERP package and if implemented correctly and with a good clear plan it can be done successfully.

 

[svanels]

I agree with chip that ERP software is a monster that is supposed to do everything.

It tries to fit:
computerized maintenance management systems
accounting
production planning
stores management
finance administration
human resource mangement
etc..

In one big package. Looking at the amount of people involved to use the program (various disciplines)it is no wonder that implementations fail.
If you want to have success, you must demolish all litle kingdoms and islands in the company (enterprise), so the bean producer speaks the same language as the bean counter.


Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[KT027Q]

If I were trying to maintain an item of plant I would hope that my CMMS could see and requisition the right parts, find the person with the right skills to do the work, schedule the work in line with the production schedule and work out how much the job costs.
There are a number of ways around the problem, including:-
1. Buy a best of breed system for each function then either write a bunch of interfaces ie. Build your own ERP. This is as we all know is a cheap, quick and effective solution.
2. Buy a best of breed system for each function then try to enter data into each of them in turn – don’t you just love living in the seventies
3. Buy a suitable ERP/EAM
Unfortunately the stories of the failed ERP implementations are spread far and wide whilst the successful ones are often quickly forgotten.
Bottom line is that if the correct ERP/EAM is chosen and then properly implemented you will have success. Reasons for failed ERP implementations are many but they are not hard to avoid.

 

[dgillz]

The ERP market is in a state of consolidation. This is true for the big guys like Peoplesoft and JD Edwards, and middle market players such as Made2Manage, Exact, BEST, etc.

ERP's future? It isn't going anywhere. There maybe some new buzzwords invented as marketing folks are always looking to put a new spin on the something.

Conceptually the ERP Systems of today are not a lot different than the MRP systems of 20 years ago, but they are now windows based, and take more advantage of disk space and ram abilities that did not exist 20 years ago. Basically the ERP package of todays does more because there are more tools at our disposal.

The ERP market is down with the rest of the economy and the fact that a lot of organizations were forced to upgrade their ERP systems 4 years ago in preparation for Y2K. A lot of them are not going to upgrade again for a while.

I agree with all the comments made about hard to implement, costly consulting, etc. I am an ERP systems consultant, and I would guess that maybe 10% of all ERP software user even come close to making full use of their ERP system.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.trianglepartners.com

 

[smythe]

Where can ERP systems go? What would replace them? They're a necessary evil! Ideally companies could make their own software to run perfectly for what they need... not going to happen. So they buy these huge systems from a company that has been consolidated 3 different times, each time it's implementation reaches a broader client base, and each time the software becomes more general and less specific to company needs.

So then the companies still use ERP software but create their own miniature IT departments, if they have the source code their programmers can make custom modifications to do something the company needed but the ERP didn't supply.

Then the ERP software company releases an upgrade, the manufacturer then wants to incorporate their custom programs on the system with the new software. Then the admin of the system leaves and finds a new job and no one knows how the system works so you hire a consultant to come in at $10,000/hr (sorry sarcasm ) It can get real messy!

ERP's are difficult to implement especially if the company buying the software doesn't

1) have a clear management vision
2) know how they want to do business
3) have steady administrators/managers of the ERP who know how it works

Despite all these problems, they are here to stay.

 

[BruceReed]

Symthe

Your 3 reasons that ERPs fail are bang-on! It's not the software (maybe sometimes), but the lack of vision and support from the corporate office. If they don't buy into the system, no one will.

Further more most companies that buy a system, want their business processes to remain the same as they have been doing for the last x years, even if a) the process is not efficient in the first place, and b) it involves custom mods or upgrades.

That being said ERP is not going anywhere, manufacturing needs a system to "tie-together" the sales office to the finance dept. to the shipping dept. and only ERP can do this. What will happen is that the software must be made easier to use for the shop floor employee, as well as more powerful to the financial analysts. So all the jockeying for position with all the ERP manufacturers is going to continue for a while.

SgrPepper, I can't recommend guys in Briton, but before you look for a consultant, make sure your company does not fall into smythe's 3 failings. Once you have your company knowing what you want, then go shopping for a consultant that will help you with YOUR plan for the future. Otherwize it will a total waste of lots of money, and many heads will roll when the project does not work.

Good luck
Bruce

 

[johnwm]

To see how ERP will work in your company, look to see how successfully the company has implemented ISO9000. If ISO9000 was, and still is, successful and providing new ideas and improved profits then there is a good chance that senior management have 'seen the light'. If ISO9000 hasn't been implemented, or if people pay lip service only, then there is little chance that ERP will work successfully.

If the company can't handle changes in their fundamental thinking and working patterns, it will be an uphill struggle, which will eventually fail. If you automate a mess, you just get a faster mess

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'People who live in windowed environments shouldn't cast pointers.'

 

[CajunCenturion]

If the company can't handle changes in their fundamental thinking and working patterns, it will be an uphill struggle, which will eventually fail.

That statement (thanks johnwm), to me illustrates why ERP systems will fail far more often than not, because it illustrates the backward philosphy behind many ERP vendor's model.

The ERP vendor expects you, the business and the customer, to change your thinking and business practices to meet their software functionality. That is exactly backwards. It should be the software that it changed to fit into and support the customer's business.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[jsteph]

cajun,
<<expects you...to change your thinking and business practices to meet their software functionality>>

That is SAP's philosophy in a nutshell. And even when that is done, it is still extremely high-maintenance.

bytofram:
<<implemented correctly and with a good clear plan it can be done successfully>>

Read: &quot;If you outlay many thousands per week in consultant costs, ABAP programmers, etc just to keep it afloat&quot;

Yes, the concept of what they do is an ideal, and necessary for large businesses. But in my opinion, none of the 'majors' (SAP, JD Edwards, etc) really have it down.

And you may be surprised to learn as Paul Harvey says &quot;The rest of the story&quot;. I had the occasion ot meet someone who worked on a large JD Edwards implementation that was touted in one of the trades as a 'success in record time'. I asked the guy about it. After a few minutes of his laughter, I heard the dirty little secret of the subsequent train wreck, lawsuits, etc. Don't believe the hype you hear in the trade rags about these wonderful implementations.
--jsteph

 

[Spanner76]

The ERP vendor expects you, the business and the customer, to change your thinking and business practices to meet their software functionality. That is exactly backwards. It should be the software that it changed to fit into and support the customer's business.

If the company can't handle changes in their fundamental thinking and working patterns, it will be an uphill struggle, which will eventually fail.

Ironically, there's truth in both views. If your ERP consultant is too eager to please, you can end up with a system that is heavily-adapted to suit inefficient business processes.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I understand what you're saying Spanner76, but let's keep in mind that we're talking about ERP systems. The potential customers for EPR system are not Mom and Pop shops or even small or medium business. Whereas it is certainly true that some companies succeed in spite of themselves, the vast majority of companies that have the stength, stability, and the financial wherewithall to even consider investing in EPR systems did not get that way because their management lacked vision, didn't understand their business or marketplaces, or built their empires on inefficient and messy systems.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[svanels]

Why Enterprise Resource Planning Software fails?

Because of lack of resources! The resources in most cases overlooked are the human resources. Years ago a read an article with the self explaining title: Who will feed the monster? ERP software can generate a hugh amount of data, but somebody has to collect the raw data and punch it in. The data has to be validated, screened and analyzed and interpreted.

The hardware is easy to buy, the software either, how about the people to operate (not the CEO's IT managers etc..) but the workhorses, in this world where the trend is downsizing on human labour.

Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[Spanner76]

I see your point, CajunCenturion, but even in the largest, strongest, stablest business, there is often a gap between senior management understanding of the business systems and the office/shopfloor practice. Surely this plays a large role in project failure?

 

[CajunCenturion]

And so you think that we should then bring in an outside ERP consultant, to bridge that gap, redefine our systems, redefine our business model, so that now neither senior management nor the office/shopfloor practice understand neither the business model nor the systems? That's not bringing them together, that splitting them even further apart.

EPR systems fail primarily because the ERP sales reptiles define that gap and bridge it in terms of what their system can do, rather then to define that gap for what it is, and help build systems to bridge the gap.

In other words, ERP sales reptiles to do help define and build solutions to the real problem, they redefine the problem so that their software is the solution.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Spanner76]

ERP systems fail primarily because the ERP sales reptiles define that gap and bridge it in terms of what their system can do, rather then to define that gap for what it is, and help build systems to bridge the gap.

Yes, but if they did that, it would take longer to reach their bonus. ;-)

 

[CajunCenturion]

Exactly, they are interested only in selling their product, collected their bonus/commission, and are not really concerned about the success/failure of the project. The fact that their software is a misfit is not their concern, and that it what is a the crux of the failure. Everything said thus far is certainly a contributing factor, but when you start the project which a misfit piece of software, no matter how hard everyone tries to make it a success, you're trying to fit a square block into a round hole and it's an uphill battle.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[lespaul]

Very interesting thread. I recently applied for a position with our local utility company that is implementing/implemented PeopleSoft. The position is an HR/IS liason position, this position is technically part of HR but works closely with the IS department. Shortly after I applied, there were three more PeopleSoft positions listed in the IS department. Each position had about 30 years of cumulative experience (you know the type:

5 - 8 years SQL/Database experience
3 - 5 years PeopleSoft experience
3 - 5 years Web experience
5 - 7 years supervisory experience
blah
blah
blah
etc!)

Anyway, I have been doing some research into the PeopleSoft program and was incredulous that one piece of software could do all the things they purported to accomplish.

The company has already implemented some portions of the software which don't work correctly (which as an outside user I really shouldn't be aware of, but when I try to use the software via the internet to check the status of my application, etc. I get the company's logon screen occasionally!). I'm pretty sure that the big hiring phase for the PeopleSoft implementation is to do the internal modifications in order for the software to work as desired.

I hope I get the job!

Leslie

 

[CajunCenturion]

That's why they need all those PeopleSoft people. They have already invested a considerable amount of money into the project, and rather then cut their losses, they bring in people to do one of two things, either round off that square peg, or square off their round hole, neither of which may in the best ong-term interests of the enterprise.

I have my finders crossed for you Leslie, and hope that you do get the job, and I'm glad that you have your eyes open and know the challenges this opportunity will bring. Best of Luck!!

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein