Enough is enough already! 5

[SPYDERIX]

Hi,

How many webmasters out there are sick and tired of fighting with bloody version 4 browsers. I know that there is still a small market for these people and that they are still potential clients. But when is enough, enough? I'm getting to the point of not caring anymore, and when trying to make a site that complies with the w3c I find it so agrovating when bloody NN-4.75 does it's usual annoyance tricks and plays games with me that makes me fight to get results. It shouldn't be this hard.

When can we switch? I say we start right now and convey the message to people that they need to wake up and smell reality, the world isn't waiting up for these people anymore. We are progressing into an ever-growing multimedia environment that requires better technology and we can't be held back by people who can't progress with the rest of us.

The chain is only as strong as it's weakest link and there are 2 ways of looking at this: 1 - the old browsers are holding us back and not letting us maximize our capabilities to achieve a higher level of work, but, 2 - these weak links are about to be broken and thrown away only to be replaced by the newer technologies.

The time is now I think. Break the link and stop conforming to such a low level of productivity and maximize your capabilities now. The movement has to start sometime and by someone or a group of people and I think the group found on Tek-Tips is a big enough one to start making a dent in the web world and get peoples understanding that there is now a progression of higher standards in place.

What do you think?

http://www.spyderix-designz.com

 

[sleipnir214]

SPYDERIX:

Whare are you going to do, sic the Browser Police on these people? There's nothing you can do to force these people to upgrade.

The best you can do for them is to cease supporting version 4 browsers, but write code that allows those browsers to crash gracefully on your site. Something along the lines of "You could see some cool stuff on this site, but your browser's too old."

Whether you continue to support them or not, quit you kvetching -- it's unbecoming. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[SPYDERIX]

sleipnir214,

That's what I am saying. Obviously you can't go see everyone and force them to upgrade. You simply force them to upgrade by not supporting them anymore. The people with the older browsers will see that alot of sites aren't working properly anymore and people will get annoyed by this and start to change.

And I'm not kvetching, this is the first time I have ever said anything about this. Thanks!

http://www.spyderix-designz.com

 

[sleipnir214]

SPYDERIX:

I am something of a purist when it comes to the world wide web. I believe that content should be made available to the greatest possible audience, and if use of snazzy, bleeding-edge UI features get in the way of that, then the bleeding-edge features should be the first thing to go.

But then, I'm a programmer, not a web designer. Since I have little if any artistic ability, I am much more concerned about making a web-site "user proof" than I am about making it distinctive and pretty.

Many of the browser upgrade requirement notices I see (I use Opera, so I see a number of sites that require IE to view the content) appear where because some web designer found it necessary to use some extremely browser-specific web code simply to make some "look-and-feel" statement about his site. Needless to say, I rarely bother with such sites.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[cian]

I guess I don't count because I am not a professional in the IT industry but I have basically given up all non-complient browsers. My content is easily accessible to as many ppl as possible but looks simply awful unless you have a new browser. Slowly people will take the hint that they are using too old browsers! And about time too!

Even as far back as 1 year ago I have seen professional commercial websites which stopped supporting V4 browsers, so now 1 year on we should have progressed a little and more of us should be giving up on these browsers.

http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/

::

http://www.endamcg.com

 

[garwain]

unless my clients specify otherwise, I only assume the users browser can handle a few things.
1) tables
2) CSS
3) ocassionally javascript

I have only developed a couple of sites that have proven to be non-netscape compatible, but this was because the client provided me with a javascript menu system that they wanted me to use, and they had a good idea who their customer base would be, and figured that only supporting IE 4+ would be acceptable. When I have the choice though, I will try to make the best layout possible, that will be available to the most people.

 

[Kjonnnn]

Not Microsoft bashing, but isnt that what they do. They say "Look, we're not supporting that version anymore."

Some people will never voluntarily upgrade until something makes them. IE is free. Its 2002, if their company can't support a higher version they need a new.

Even when people ask me to look at their computers to see if I can upgrade it or make it "better," if its old and out of date, I just tell them you need another PC. I've wasted enough time on PCs that are old, but the user wants the latest software to run fast on it.

So while so may say, support all browswers, at some point you gotta say enough.

What if the record industry had waited on CDs, we STILL would be playing albums.

 

[KimberTech]

Question from a non Webbie techie....
A lot of MY clients don't care about the multimedia aspects of a website.
Often I just need content....text only will do.

Is it POSSIBLE that there could be a link for ppl to click for text only if they are using a Browser of ? version *.* or lower?

That way these people are still "supported" without any additional hassles for you all.....

This is a question......would it be less work for you that way and solve some of these problems?

Curiously awaiting comment.....thinking of getting into some courses for programming and design at the moment.... Kimber

The more I learn,I realize how much more there is to know!

 

[onpnt]

if you had server side scripting capabilities you can parse the page for text contents only and show them on the basis of the version of the users browser.

howvever as you'll see in many designers home sites the link to a upgrade if the users browser is far easier and quicker.

But, there is ways around it. Same basis as a print friendly page for those purposes you can redirect to something similar

---------------------------------------
{ str = "sleep is good for you. sleep gives you the energy you need to function";
ptr = /sleep/gi;Nstr = str.replace(ptr,"coffee"alert(Nstr); }

http://www.onpntwebdesigns.com

 

[Alcar]

As I see it, it's merely a choice that your client has to make. Once you have filled your client with enough information over the issue, he'll make the proper considerations and make a choice and if he wants it browsable for everyone... hey, it's more time spent on development, more cash to drop in our box. ;-)
Daren J. Lahey
Just another computer guy...
FAQ183-874 contains "Suggestions for Getting Quick and Appropriate Answers" to your questions.
Support your forums TODAY!

http://www.tek-tips.com/supportus.cfm

 

[sleipnir214]

KimberTech:

It is more than possible to build a site that can "dumb itself down" for older browsers, and I have seen a few that actually do that. But it means creating the site multiple times in multiple versions.

Generally speaking, a web designer will design exactly as many versions of a web-site that his client is willing to pay for.

Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[SPYDERIX]

What would you say about designing your webpages like this:

<!--#if expr=&quot;${HTTP_USER_AGENT} = /Mozilla\/4/&quot; -->
Unfortunately our site is non compliant with Netscape 4. Please either upgrade your browser or use a different version of browser.
<!--#else -->
YOUR PAGE CONTENT GOES HERE IF THEY ARE USING SOMETHING ELSE

Is that a good way to go about things or should sites just show a printer friendly non-designed site for incompatible browsers?

What would you say to that?

http://www.spyderix-designz.com

 

[sleipnir214]

The best practice is to provide content that is presentable by older browsers. The old &quot;you gotta upgrade before you can see any of my site&quot; is high-handed. Want the best answers? Ask the best questions:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

TANSTAAFL!

 

[cian]

I also don't really agree with stopping someone from seeing your site if the browser is old, but I definitly think we should ALL make people aware that old browsers need to be upgraded.

I recieved an email from a visitor recently telling me my site does not work in N4.7 and that as a designer I should design for everybody including people in under-developed countries you don't have access to latest technologies. My answer was plain, browsers are free, go download a new one. If the content is readable then what's the problem? The site may be ugly but you still get the information. If you want to look at pretty sites then use a newer &quot;#¤%&/()=? browser!
I wasn't as rude as that though!



::

http://www.endamcg.com

 

[KimberTech]

&quot;Is that a good way to go about things or should sites just show a printer friendly non-designed site for incompatible browsers?

What would you say to that?&quot;

I think that would be just fine...really. If I have gone to your site, I am interested in what you have to say, or to offer.

Browsers may be free...BUT....if you have a really old machine and it's all you can afford, and the new browser will suck all the resources and make your system run as worse of a turtle...

...well you get the idea.
If there is a printer friendly text option then information is available to all...and isn't that what the web is all about?

I think it is a great idea and it means that web people can design for the most recent browsers and advance their work.

Feel free to disagree... Kimber

The more I learn,I realize how much more there is to know!

 

[bbolte]

i agree with most everything said. but doesn't it really come down to who your audience is? i have 2 websites with a client base that seems to prefer either NS 4.x or AOL 4. these are the largest user groups. on one site, this group combined is over 50%, sometimes as high as 75%.

i would love to give these browsers up, but can't. xhtml/standards compliance is a great goal and should be strived for, but wouldn't i be cutting my own throat here?

just fyi, i recently found out that Boeing (you know, the international airplane mfg) uses NS 4.7 throughout (at least where i live). they aren't allowed to use anything else. in my city alone, that is possibly 10,000 users.

 

[Tarwn]

I work more on the functional side of things, not necessarally &quot;what can you show me&quot;, but &quot;what can you do for me&quot;. I can't count the number of times a customer has asked for a specific piece of functionality and told me they want it working on a specific browser and higher, only to later complain about the fact that I had to resort to server-side scripting to even begin to create what they wanted.
I think if a client wants a functional site with certain functionality that requires a certain browser or higher, explain to them the differance in how it will work (in small words) if you program it for lower browsers, then explain how it would work exaclty the way they want it to in higher browsers, then see which one they take. Very very few customers will jump up and say &quot;Give me a site for both!&quot; even if you stress the fact that this si the best route in order to give them the functionality they want (requiring a newer browser) but the attention of the download defficient (using older browsers).

I personally prefer coding for either a single browser level (and higher of course) or writing simpler functionality for many browsers. I actually laughed at someone once because they were being asked to make over 8000 lines of code (working in IE5+ and newer versions of NS) NS4 compliant. Basically the entire site would have had to have been rewritten for 1 browser.

Just me and my little issue with non-compliant browsers.

-Tarwn --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
No more vacation for me

FAQ FAQ20-2863
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[petey]

It would be nice if there were a technology that allowed web authors to code their sites in raw, basic HTML that every browser understood, without regard to the graphic design aspect, but still gave designers a way to do graphic design and layout separately.

This way we could write our content with the simplest of HTML tags, such as <p> and <h1>, and then put a special tag in the <head> that only modern browsers would pay attention to. This special tag would link to some sort of design specification containing custom instructions on how to present the information on that page; for example how to format links or adjust page margins.

Old browsers would simply present the content as black and white text--perfectly readable headers, lists, etc., but modern browsers would read in the special design instructions and format the HTML tags accordingly.

If only such a technology existed... *cough*CSS*cough*

petey

http://www.drpeterjones.com/

 

[xutopia]

I give a star to SPYDERIX for raising an issue.

From experience supporting Netscape 4 browsers is easy for simple sites but nearly tripples the time for web applications with heavy scripting.

We should all support the most standard compliant browser out there which is Mozilla (check out pheonix it's the same core with more features, faster and less bug ridden).

I stopped supporting older proprietary software such as IE4 or Netscape 4. Now I use standards only and I greatly aprove anyone who does the same. When I build a site i'm happy if it works with Mozilla based browsers and Internet Explorer 5 and above. Gary

http://www.xutopia.com

Haran

 

[icrf]

Let me speak out as an opera user. I'm a huge fan and I get very annoyed at webpages that are governed by my browser's user agent envirvar. Luckily, opera allows itself to be identified as other browsers, so I can get around little problems like that, but it really is something I would discourage. It's a hassle to change that (and I refuse to leave it changed, need to leave my mark across all the apache logs out there).

Write for standards compliance. Opera is pretty good about conforming to the various w3c dictations, but I keep running into the problems of people designing pages in those pricey wysiwyg suits that insert IE proprietary formatting. I can do without. Write to the most modern standards, not the most modern browsers.

Since I don't do complex web development, I was wondering if some of you might be able to tell me the kinds of things that give me problems. What is it that IE 6.x does that other browsers can't seem to understand? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but I'm just a C man trying to see the light