Dreaming....

[gbaughma]

Since the "Never Ending Story 2" thread is starting to get back on track, I figured I'd start a new thread continuing the topic about dreaming started in *that* thread.

To understand dreams, one must understand how the brain works. (this is my understanding of how things work, and how dreams are actually a "by-product" of those functions).

This also addresses problems with learning-disabled people... so read on, and become edumacated.

When we are awake, our "short term memory" is chemical in nature. Things that we learn or hear or see throughout the day are stored chemically. This chemical bond (in normal people) lasts about 12-16 hours before the chemicals start to break down.

When we sleep, our brain does a "maintenance", evaluating the chemically stored information, and forming permanent synapses for things that it deems "important".

With someone who is learning disabled, this chemical bond is shorter (say, 6 or 8 hours). If the person doesn't sleep within that amount of time, those chemical memories break down, and the information isn't committed to synaptic memory. This is why learning-disabled or people with short chemical memory do *much* better in evening classes, where they can get the information, then go home and go to bed and process it. (This would also justify taking a "nap" in the middle of your school day.... but I'm getting off subject).

Well, dreaming is a by-product of that maintenance process. Your brain creates synaptic junctions based on the chemical storage throughout the day, then "tests" the new synapses. The by-product of this process is dreaming. Because of the very nature of the process, your dreams can be obtuse, as your brain pieces together the synaptic junctions; or seemingly unrelated, as your brain is processing the seemingly inconsequential memories throughout the day.

It's funny how fast your brain works during all of this, too... your longest dreams only last about 6 to 8 seconds (no matter how long they seemed), partially because your brain processes so fast, that you're getting a "fast foward" version of the dream while you're dreaming, but when you recall the dream later, you're remembering it in normal speed.

Additionally, I've had dreams where there has been a sound or something happen around me, and it has been "seamlessly" integrated with the dream. Ever had the phone ring while you've been dreaming, and the phone ringing integrates with your dream? I have... it's bizarre... when I wake up, I have to wait for the second ring to verify that it was *actually* ringing.

Dreams aren't just visual either... your brain processes and stores all of your senses. I've "smelled" things in my dreams, felt them, seen them, heard them, tasted them.

If you are one of those folks that has problems remembering what you learned the morning before, you may have a limited chemical storage time in your brain. Try taking a nap for a half-hour in the middle of the day (if you're a college student, schedule a break between the morning and afternoon classes), and you'll find that your retention of data is *much* more complete.



Just my 2¢

"In order to start solving a problem, one must first identify its owner." --Me
--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[Lunatic]

Greg, do you have some links or even terms to google? This is fairly similar but in some ways signficantly different from what I've learned in the past but sounds like it makes sense in many cases. I'm very interested and something I'd be interested in finding out more about. So any starting points would be much appriciated.

Thanks!

 

[Gooser]

You could make a small leap and say that it sort of explains why kids seem to have more frequent nightmares too. As they are developing their sense of fear, and what to be afraid of, their brain could be storing the scary things they've seen during the day and then re-running it, which, in turn, scares the ¢rap out of them. While adults already have a pretty good set of things to be afraid of, and they don't have to store the new info, and don't have to dream about it. Just a theory...(but then, so is evolution.)

Very interesting stuff, Greg. Calls to mind a CRC-type operation. I'd be interested in more info as well.

--Gooser

 

[RegistrationMark]

A very interesting is out dealing with quantum physics and brain activity, and much more.
It's called "What the bleep do we know?"
Check it out. Fas-in-at-ing.
Mark

 

[jebenson]

Greg,
The part of your post about integrating an outside noise in your dreams reminds me of the topic of "lucid dreaming" research. I read about one particular area of study where the reasearchers interviewed volunteers and determined which of them were lucid dreamers - that is, they had very vivid dreams that incorporated more than one sense (sight, hearing, even smell in some cases). The reaseachers then hooked the lucid-dreamer volunteers up to "REM monitors" to determine when they were starting to dream. When this happened, the researchers played a tone for the sleeping people, who were trained over time to recognize this tone as a sign that they were dreaming. The volunteers eventually learned to "take control" of their dreams - they basically were aware that they were dreaming and could do whatever they wanted. Many reported being able to "fly" at will, "transport" themselves to favorite places, etc.

I have actually had this happen to me before. In one dream I was riding a bicycle, and went over a hill. Instead of going down the other side of the hill, the bicycle and I kept going up, and up, and I did a back flip on the bicycle before landing softly. At this point I thought to myself, "This is impossible...I must be dreaming." So I tried to make myself fly...and it worked! However, I got so excited that I could control my dream that I woke up. This has happened again several times, and each time I get all excited and wake myself up. Stupid brain!

Unfortunately, I can't find any links to the study I read about. If you do a Google search with 'lucid dreaming', you get a bunch of sites promising things like "Lucid Dream in Just 7 Days!", stop smoking remedies, etc. It's like all the "left-brain/right-brain" nonsense that proliferated in popular culture a while back...there is merit to some of it, but most of it is "snake oil."

Here's some links about Greg's post:

[URL unfurl="true"]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/07/030709064042.htm[/url]

[URL unfurl="true"]http://www.littletree.com.au/dreaming.htm[/url]

I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day! Ye has a choice: talk like a pira

 

[WTKnow]

Dreams are not prediction of the future BUT reflections of the past...

 

[gbaughma]

jebenson:

Thank you for providing the links.

My narrative was actually from a discussion I had with a psychiatrist (no, not mine, a friend of mine), so I was going on what he told me re: learing disabilities and neural processes.

Interesting stuff, when you think about it, and as Gooser pointed out, a lot of other things fall into place once you understand the process.

And, speaking of nightmares, I can't even remember the last time that I had one. It's a shame, in a way, I *LOVE* the adrenaline rush I get from a good nightmare. <LOL> However, if I *do* start to have a "bad dream", the lucid portion kicks in, and I realize that I'm dreaming...



Just my 2¢

"In order to start solving a problem, one must first identify its owner." --Me
--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[Gooser]

Drink more NyQuil...that always gives me crazy dreams, though the nicotine patch did too. I love a good crazy dream.

--Gooser

 

[RegistrationMark]

LOL Goose, but passed out does not mean your sleeping!

 

[jebenson]

I love stories about people solving problems/creating something in their dreams. One such is the story of chemist Friedrich Kekulé, who was studying Benzene in the 1820's. He *supposedly* dreamed about a snake swallowing its tail, and from that dream came to the realization that the molecular structre of Benzene is ring-shaped.




I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day! Ye has a choice: talk like a pira

 

[Gooser]

I've had ERWin dreams before.

 

[AlexCuse]

I've never thought of it like that before, but it does make sense. I'll run it past my fiance, who has a graduate degree in psychology.

As an aside, when I was about 12 I had what I believe is a great example of dreams and reality coming together. I dreamed that my alarm went off, and that I got out of bed, took off pajamas, and got in the shower. My dad then woke me up in the shower (saying "what the bleep are you doing, it's 3 am) Interestingly enough, I had gotten in the shower but not taken off my pajamas. Strange...

ALex

It's a magical time of year in Philadelphia. Eagles training camp marks the end of another brutal season of complaining about the Phillies.

 

[gbaughma]

I've dreamed code before... when I couldn't figure out how to get a routine to work right, I'll dream the solution.

Have you ever had one of those dreams where you've dreamed that you got up, got dressed, went to work, put in your whole day of work, then the alarm goes off, and you wake up tired, saying "DAMN! Now I have to do it all over again!" <LOL> Had that happen to me a few times.

Of course, most mornings, my alarm goes off, and I sit up in bed and yell "LIAR!" at it.

The most important lesson that I learned about sleeping is that sleeping should be treated like any other task of the day. When you go to bed, you should say to yourself "OK, I've done everything else I needed to do today, now it's time for sleep, I'm going to do that now." What you'll find if you get into this mindset is that you fall asleep faster, you don't spend the night fretting over stuff that happened that day (or that you need to do tomorrow), because in your mind you're saying "This is rest time."

It really does work.



Just my 2¢

"In order to start solving a problem, one must first identify its owner." --Me
--Greg

http://parallel.tzo.com

 

[AlexCuse]

Ha I have actually dreamed the solution for a code problem before as well. When I told my friends they looked at me like I was the coolest guy ever

Alex

It's a magical time of year in Philadelphia. Eagles training camp marks the end of another brutal season of complaining about the Phillies.

 

[Grenage]

I'm not sure we ever really 'hear' things in our dreams (aside from actual sounds like alarm clocks, talking, radio etc). I get the distinct impression, at least when I dream, that I am acknowledging the existance if a sound/taste/texture that I 'know' to be there.

I suppose that's a bit obvious really, unless it comes through your ears or across your tongue then it's exactly the same as humming a tune in your head.


Carlsberg don't run I.T departments, but if they did they'd probably be more fun.

 

[SilentAiche]

Interestingly enough, I had gotten in the shower but not taken off my pajamas. Strange...

I think they call that a "dress rehearsal." [gray](You realize that I'm just dying to say it was for a Soap Opera...[/gray]

Don't be alarmed...

Tim


[blue]_______________________________________________________
"Although many figures are strange, prime numbers are truly odd."[/blue]

 

[tsdragon]

There is a medication called Sustiva that has a known side-effect of occasionally causing extremely vivid (and usually expicitly sexual) dreams. I've heard that some people were actually snorting the stuff to try to get just that effect. Unfortunately for them, the side-effect is very infrequent and unpredictable. If they could figure out why it sometimes does that, they'd have a real winner.


Tracy Dryden

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[fumei]

Interesting. Sustiva (efavirenz) is a non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor (NNRTI), which prevents HIV from entering the nucleus of healthy T-cells. This slows/inhibits the cells from producing new virus and decreases the amount of virus in the body.

I had no idea it was used for any recreational effects.

Back to the subject. I dream very little, if at all. Now before anyone heads off on the -yes-of-course-you-do tangent.....

I have been going to the Sleep Clinic (Lab) at the University of British Columbia for 25+ years. I have been wired up for formal sleep studies more often than I care to think about.

In the my last sleep study my TOTAL sleep over three nights was 43 minutes. NO amount of REM was detected. I reached Stage Three for a total of 4 minutes, and was never recorded at Stage Four.

In an nine day study, four 24 hours periods had less than 20 minutes sleep (the lowest being 11 minutes). The longest accumulative sleep in any 24 hour period was 3h 27m. I NEVER sleep more than 90 minutes in any contiguous stretch - no matter how tired I am.

This is, unfortunately, fairly normal. About every ten days or so, I crash, and it is my opinion (somewhat disputed by the doctors) that I do so in order to dream. I will sleep for 35 - 40 minutes, then wake up. Anyway, I am convinced that I crash specifically to dream. I think the mind requires some dreaming. Whether it is to process information from chemical "temp" files, or whatever. My personal feeling is that I eventually reach the point where I NEED to be able to say to the world...bugger off, I am going somewhere else for a while.

Dreaming is very much associated (although not totally) with REM. The average REM period is about 100 - 140 minutes (6,000 - 8,400 seconds) during the night, This is broken into three to five chunks, with usually the first the longest.

I remember one sleep study that when I returned for the follow-up, the doctor waved the printout in my face and said "What the hell is this??!!!". There was ONE single REM spike - duration 22 seconds. That was it. There was no other recording of REM. It drives them (the doctors) nuts.

But again, I think we need dreams.

Gerry
My paintings and sculpture

 

[jebenson]

fumei,
I've been wondering how you find the time to do all the painting and sculpture. I guess now I know.



I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky if I can find 30 minutes a week in which to get funky. - Homer Simpson

Arrrr, mateys! Ye needs ta be preparin' yerselves fer Talk Like a Pirate Day! Ye has a choice: talk like a pira

 

[tsdragon]

fumei: You're right on with your description of Sustiva. It really can't be used for recreation effects, since they are unpredictable and infrequent (but that didn't stop people from trying). I suppose one day someone will study the vivid dream side effect and discover something useful from it, but for now those particular researchers are busy with something much more important.

Tracy Dryden

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.