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dot-com resentment 1
- Thread starter chiph
- Start date
spewn
Programmer
- May 7, 2001
- 1,034
- 0
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gloating? what do you mean?
on the .com note, though, i haven't noticed a great number of businesses 'running' to the new domains, like .cc, .biz or .tv...
and only a few have embraced the .net...(although it's my runner up for .com)
seems .com is the generic id for e-biz...like kleenex instead of tissue or Q-tips for cotton swabs...
- g
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Yes, I do believe that there is quite a resentment from the .com crash. Lots of business people lost considerable sums of cash and in general, blame IT. They don't understand IT to being with, and couple with the fact they've lost money investing in it, they now want nothing to do with it. Much of the losses were due to these hi-tech companies who couldn't put together a reasonable business plan, but rode the hi-tech wave, and got people to invest in the hype and the boundless future of the internet.
To make matters worse, during the mid to late 90's, during the boom times, lots of unqualified people entered into the IT profession, looking for the quick and easy buck, many of them getting this or that certificate to prove their worth, but unable to get the job done when the time came.
So now, we have an flooded talent pool, much of which has very little accredited education, business people licking their wounds, and a general lock of comprehension of what IT is all about.
Resentment, yes - you could call it that.
Gloating - I've seen very little gloating, other than from the naysayers who said to the investors, "I told you so".
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
To make matters worse, during the mid to late 90's, during the boom times, lots of unqualified people entered into the IT profession, looking for the quick and easy buck, many of them getting this or that certificate to prove their worth, but unable to get the job done when the time came.
So now, we have an flooded talent pool, much of which has very little accredited education, business people licking their wounds, and a general lock of comprehension of what IT is all about.
Resentment, yes - you could call it that.
Gloating - I've seen very little gloating, other than from the naysayers who said to the investors, "I told you so".
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
I agree with Cajun wholeheartedly on the certification. Many certifications were really worthless too.
It was totally normal that the crash happen but don't think that IT will not reshape to be an awesome industry in a few years.
Movie studios, car manufacturers all went though an initial hype before crashing and recuperating. I see IT doing the same thing.
Gary Haran
==========================
It was totally normal that the crash happen but don't think that IT will not reshape to be an awesome industry in a few years.
Movie studios, car manufacturers all went though an initial hype before crashing and recuperating. I see IT doing the same thing.
Gary Haran
==========================
guestgulkan
Technical User
What surprised me about the whole fiasco, is the number of well known, normally sensible companies that jumped on the bandwagon.
For example: Over here in the UK, the GEC Marconi electronics company, a big player in the defence market, completely sold off it's defence side to pile into
Tech & Telecoms.
Now their shares aint worth diddley squat.
For example: Over here in the UK, the GEC Marconi electronics company, a big player in the defence market, completely sold off it's defence side to pile into
Tech & Telecoms.
Now their shares aint worth diddley squat.
I've definitely seen a lot of backlash. I think there is this feeling that any concept or idea associated with tech and the dot-com boom is bad. I don't really want to get into the speciffics, but needless to say this over-pessimism is just as destructive if not more than the over-optimism experienced before. Living in New York, I know a few people who work in finance, and the general feel I get from them is that we're all a bunch of hippies.
Resentment? Yes, I'm very resentful that I can't get a real job.
I question whether Cajun is too. It seems very convenient to claim that there are a lot of unqualified techies, who are only interested in money, saturating the job market. Maybe, it's because I'm relatively new to the biz (only graduated from college 3 years ago), but I haven't met that many unqualified people.
-Venkman
Resentment? Yes, I'm very resentful that I can't get a real job.
I question whether Cajun is too. It seems very convenient to claim that there are a lot of unqualified techies, who are only interested in money, saturating the job market. Maybe, it's because I'm relatively new to the biz (only graduated from college 3 years ago), but I haven't met that many unqualified people.-Venkman
CajunCenturion
Programmer
venkman - I got my MS in Comp Sci over 20 years ago, and I can assure you that I've seen more than anyone's share of unqualified people enter into this profession in the last five to eight years.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
AIXSPadmin
MIS
venkman, as far as unqualified people in IT - YES! I worked for a Fortune 500 company and on my team:
one guy claimed to know AIX, yet it was clear he didn't. He had me help him with his PC when he bought a new one.
One guy didn't know that much about networking but since data comm did that he didn't have to worry about or know it. In fact, he did not even like the computer field but since it is such a large company it satisfied his dollar requirements because he spent most of the money at the bar.
One guy came from Notes support and in 3 years never has totally grasped Unix.
One is a comp sci grad who cut and pasted a java assignment from a text book because they hated programming, and nobody there trusts them because of their perceived? lack of value.
One did not have very good tech skills but went to lunch with the boss's boss's boss.
No there are a lot of fakers in the biz!
one guy claimed to know AIX, yet it was clear he didn't. He had me help him with his PC when he bought a new one.
One guy didn't know that much about networking but since data comm did that he didn't have to worry about or know it. In fact, he did not even like the computer field but since it is such a large company it satisfied his dollar requirements because he spent most of the money at the bar.
One guy came from Notes support and in 3 years never has totally grasped Unix.
One is a comp sci grad who cut and pasted a java assignment from a text book because they hated programming, and nobody there trusts them because of their perceived? lack of value.
One did not have very good tech skills but went to lunch with the boss's boss's boss.
No there are a lot of fakers in the biz!
dilettante
MIS
Yep, the unqualified who were dragged in the door by a relative or a relative's golf buddy are nearly as numerous as the fakers and pretenders.
What scares me the most are the ones without a clue that they're clueless... um. Yeah. What I said.
These people pad payrolls and steal jobs from those who might actually help make a positive contribution to the economy by producing results.
Actually you'd think I should welcome them, since a good hunk of what I do is clean up their messes. Problem is, only maybe 10% of my pay comes from this activity, when I am brought in specifically to clean up a mess. All of the rest of the grief-remediation I do is overhead for me, clearing the undergrowth before I can get underway with my projects, and causes grumbles about how long it takes to get things done. They make me look bad and cost me money. And they are killing their employers.
Sheesh AIXSPadmin, what are they calling Computer Science now? When I went through it the core curriculum required a series of courses where you had to write an operating system kernel that would run a given suite of applications, and a compiler that could process a set of given programs and have the executable run correctly. The OS ran on an emulator but the compiler and its output ran on real hardware.
How does one get through stuff like that cutting/pasting code? I mean, they actually LOOKED AT your source code, so plagiarism was out of the question. You had to provide a writeup describing how key modules had been implemented as well.
What scares me the most are the ones without a clue that they're clueless... um. Yeah. What I said.
These people pad payrolls and steal jobs from those who might actually help make a positive contribution to the economy by producing results.
Actually you'd think I should welcome them, since a good hunk of what I do is clean up their messes. Problem is, only maybe 10% of my pay comes from this activity, when I am brought in specifically to clean up a mess. All of the rest of the grief-remediation I do is overhead for me, clearing the undergrowth before I can get underway with my projects, and causes grumbles about how long it takes to get things done. They make me look bad and cost me money. And they are killing their employers.
Sheesh AIXSPadmin, what are they calling Computer Science now? When I went through it the core curriculum required a series of courses where you had to write an operating system kernel that would run a given suite of applications, and a compiler that could process a set of given programs and have the executable run correctly. The OS ran on an emulator but the compiler and its output ran on real hardware.
How does one get through stuff like that cutting/pasting code? I mean, they actually LOOKED AT your source code, so plagiarism was out of the question. You had to provide a writeup describing how key modules had been implemented as well.
AIXSPadmin
MIS
dilettante, out of about 7 production AIX/Solaris Sys Admins at that Fortune 500 company - the number who could actually write a script, 3. But from that number; 1 did not even know anything about arrays in shells and actually just strings together a number of commands in a script but thought he was THEE scripting genius, 1 never used functions along with returns or continues, the other was me who always used functions and arrays.
There was a few times after writing a script of maybe 30 lines using arrays and so forth, the "genius" I mentioned above would claim he could do it in fewer lines using the old grep pipe cut, yadda. When he was finished yes it was shorter, but it ran longer.
This is just scripting. This does not even get into the realm of real programming. But the fact of the matter is that nobody outside of me had any notion of IBM's algorithms and calculations for determining CPU speed and tuning. They had no concept of filesystem design and fragment sizes in relation to wasted disk space. There was no concept of logically building filesystems and disk placement.
They are there for the paycheck only. No desire to learn anything new, and really they are overpaid. I had about 40 systems that I maintained. One guy had like 4, another guy had 4, another guy had 2. They are Unix admins and they have no knowledge of LDAP or DNS or anything, because the company says they do infrastructure only; they are in charge of the hardware and OS, nothing else! Talk about boring at many times! At least I spent my time learning new things to keep abreast. They screwed around.
So much for everyone thinking that only the best and brightest work for high salaries at Fortune 500 companies. Truth be told most are not worth what they are being paid, nor are the job functions worth that amount.
There was a few times after writing a script of maybe 30 lines using arrays and so forth, the "genius" I mentioned above would claim he could do it in fewer lines using the old grep pipe cut, yadda. When he was finished yes it was shorter, but it ran longer.
This is just scripting. This does not even get into the realm of real programming. But the fact of the matter is that nobody outside of me had any notion of IBM's algorithms and calculations for determining CPU speed and tuning. They had no concept of filesystem design and fragment sizes in relation to wasted disk space. There was no concept of logically building filesystems and disk placement.
They are there for the paycheck only. No desire to learn anything new, and really they are overpaid. I had about 40 systems that I maintained. One guy had like 4, another guy had 4, another guy had 2. They are Unix admins and they have no knowledge of LDAP or DNS or anything, because the company says they do infrastructure only; they are in charge of the hardware and OS, nothing else! Talk about boring at many times! At least I spent my time learning new things to keep abreast. They screwed around.
So much for everyone thinking that only the best and brightest work for high salaries at Fortune 500 companies. Truth be told most are not worth what they are being paid, nor are the job functions worth that amount.
sleipnir214
Programmer
AIXSPadmin:
You've hit on the kind of so-called "expert" that astonishes me to no end -- the kind that neither knows anything outside his little bailiwick nor wants to. I can't fathom that kind of willful ignorance.
I once had a phone conversation with an SAP implementer who was so focused on Accounts Receivable module, he actually got angry when I asked him a question about the Accounts Payable module. (Mainly because he didn't know anything about it.) After that, our conversation degraded to the point that he hung up on me after I shouted into the reciever, "Dumbass! Learning a new thing doesn't require you have to forget something else to make room for it!"
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
You've hit on the kind of so-called "expert" that astonishes me to no end -- the kind that neither knows anything outside his little bailiwick nor wants to. I can't fathom that kind of willful ignorance.
I once had a phone conversation with an SAP implementer who was so focused on Accounts Receivable module, he actually got angry when I asked him a question about the Accounts Payable module. (Mainly because he didn't know anything about it.) After that, our conversation degraded to the point that he hung up on me after I shouted into the reciever, "Dumbass! Learning a new thing doesn't require you have to forget something else to make room for it!"
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
sleipnir214
Programmer
venkman:
Actually, my story comes from my last employer. It only took that company 2-1/2 years of near-criminal corporate mismanagement to go from having 17 offices in 4 countries to one office in California.
It wasn't so much that the company hired just anybody -- the company was a roll-up and the founding companies had a lot of dead weight in them to start with.
When I was tasked with shutting down my office, I felt pretty sorry for myself. Until I told my tale of woe to my brother in law, who is a corporate lawyer for Enron -- he straightened me out pretty quick.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
Actually, my story comes from my last employer. It only took that company 2-1/2 years of near-criminal corporate mismanagement to go from having 17 offices in 4 countries to one office in California.
It wasn't so much that the company hired just anybody -- the company was a roll-up and the founding companies had a lot of dead weight in them to start with.
When I was tasked with shutting down my office, I felt pretty sorry for myself. Until I told my tale of woe to my brother in law, who is a corporate lawyer for Enron -- he straightened me out pretty quick.
Want the best answers? Ask the best questions: TANSTAAFL!
<rant on>
I agree with Cajun and AIX, the number of un-qualified persons working in this industry is downright pathetic anymore. As someone with almost 21 years of work experience and having spent numerous hours in computer courses (college level), it's downright scary.
Case in point, I recently failed the cisco CCDP exam (which is a first class joke, btw, and I have a CCNA/DA from concepts and hands on work at our local network academy). On April 23, I get a call from a business owner (who got my number from a guy i'd done network design for previously), and his staff (4 network guys, 2 with CCNA's and a CCNP, and one guy with no certs at all) couldn't get a cisco 26xx working with a T-1 after the previous T-1 failed.
I went in, and in less than 5 minutes, had it up and running. I thought about it for a couple of minutes, and gave the owner a bill for $200, and mentioned to him, that he didn't have qualified persons working for him.
We have spent so much time dumbing down our educational system, it's NO surprise that we have persons working in I.T. who have no clue as to how stuff actually works anymore (I'm called a old fart, yes, I can use a slide rule, yes, i've punched cards for writing fortran programs, but i'm the guy who gets called when stuff needs to be fixed).
The other problem is that industry itself is to blame, I can recall years ago (1981 no less) that if you couldn't hack the first programming course (fortran) within about 3-4 weeks of the class starting, you were filling out a drop slip and changing majors. I see college grads who are absolutely clueless when it comes to doing things, they might know all the theory in the world (which I can look up in a book if I need to figure it out), but when it comes time to implement, they can't do it (kind of makes you wonder how they GOT the degree in the first place, no)?
Another thing that burns my butt also is the IMPROPER use of certifications by HR and clueless IT managers who haven't a clue how stuff really works. A entry level certification (assumes NO work exp. at all) shows me the person knows enough to understand JUST the basics of the certification they hold. A certification earned by someone who has some work experience behind them shows me that the person the person is somewhat knowledgable about the material the certification covers.
<rant off>
I agree with Cajun and AIX, the number of un-qualified persons working in this industry is downright pathetic anymore. As someone with almost 21 years of work experience and having spent numerous hours in computer courses (college level), it's downright scary.
Case in point, I recently failed the cisco CCDP exam (which is a first class joke, btw, and I have a CCNA/DA from concepts and hands on work at our local network academy). On April 23, I get a call from a business owner (who got my number from a guy i'd done network design for previously), and his staff (4 network guys, 2 with CCNA's and a CCNP, and one guy with no certs at all) couldn't get a cisco 26xx working with a T-1 after the previous T-1 failed.
I went in, and in less than 5 minutes, had it up and running. I thought about it for a couple of minutes, and gave the owner a bill for $200, and mentioned to him, that he didn't have qualified persons working for him.
We have spent so much time dumbing down our educational system, it's NO surprise that we have persons working in I.T. who have no clue as to how stuff actually works anymore (I'm called a old fart, yes, I can use a slide rule, yes, i've punched cards for writing fortran programs, but i'm the guy who gets called when stuff needs to be fixed).
The other problem is that industry itself is to blame, I can recall years ago (1981 no less) that if you couldn't hack the first programming course (fortran) within about 3-4 weeks of the class starting, you were filling out a drop slip and changing majors. I see college grads who are absolutely clueless when it comes to doing things, they might know all the theory in the world (which I can look up in a book if I need to figure it out), but when it comes time to implement, they can't do it (kind of makes you wonder how they GOT the degree in the first place, no)?
Another thing that burns my butt also is the IMPROPER use of certifications by HR and clueless IT managers who haven't a clue how stuff really works. A entry level certification (assumes NO work exp. at all) shows me the person knows enough to understand JUST the basics of the certification they hold. A certification earned by someone who has some work experience behind them shows me that the person the person is somewhat knowledgable about the material the certification covers.
<rant off>
BJCooperIT
Programmer
dot-com resentment
Unqualified staff turned loose in IT - absolutely, no arguement from me. I have seen folks who can create a web page turn all shades of pale when expected to analyse a business requirement or do back-end work. Their work experience was not necessarily well-rounded. But, that can also be said of stagnating "go-nowhere" staff who have been in the business for years.
My resentment came from the experience of working for a consulting company who was bought by a struggling .com group who were looking for a profit center. They came, they made bad policies, they milked us dry, they went out of business.
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8.1.7 - Windows 2000
[sup]When posting code, please use TGML for readability. Thanks![sup]
Unqualified staff turned loose in IT - absolutely, no arguement from me. I have seen folks who can create a web page turn all shades of pale when expected to analyse a business requirement or do back-end work. Their work experience was not necessarily well-rounded. But, that can also be said of stagnating "go-nowhere" staff who have been in the business for years.
My resentment came from the experience of working for a consulting company who was bought by a struggling .com group who were looking for a profit center. They came, they made bad policies, they milked us dry, they went out of business.
Code:
select * from Life where Brain is not null[sup]When posting code, please use TGML for readability. Thanks![sup]
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1
- #16
This is a message near and dear to my heart. I've posted this article before but it analyzes what happened in the world of I.T.
It starts with the arrogant attitude that many (not all) technology professionals had during the "talent" hungry '90s.
I was the technical infrastructure specialist as a consultant for a large and well-known haircare & cosmetics company. They were doing an SAP project.
I used to sit in meetings with the SAP team. The project was being implemented on an AS/400. While I would not claim to be an AS/400 expert (I have enough working knowledge to be creatively innovative on a dangerous fringe), I would listen as they made statements that were erroneous. I would go out, grab the IBM red book and implement what they said could not be done.
Many of these SAP specialists had graduated from college or even had their MBA, had taken a 6 week course in SAP, and were being billed as Jr. SAP Consultants at $125-150/hr. I referred to them affecianately as "puppies" and still do.
I wrote a rather harsh critique of the project and its chances for success. As a result, the company was fired and my employer mounted a $14 million dollar lawsuit. I was subpoenaed for the case but fortunately it was settled before court.
I place the blame on the I.T. industry, but not solely. Business definately threw good business practice out of the window and turned many a "puppy" into a CIO.
However, technology professionals have dropped the ball in being up front on the ability to deliver the goods and at understanding and speaking in business terminology. KPMG/Computerworlds study back in 1998 indicated as much with CEO's and executive management (even back then) indicating actual distrust for their I.T. department or consultants.
I view this as a great thing for technology professionals because, as my article states, the emphasis is back on performance. Not technical performance purely but the entire package. Technology acheiving a well-understood and clearly defined business objective.
I know that was long but I hope it was helpful.
Matthew Moran
It starts with the arrogant attitude that many (not all) technology professionals had during the "talent" hungry '90s.
I was the technical infrastructure specialist as a consultant for a large and well-known haircare & cosmetics company. They were doing an SAP project.
I used to sit in meetings with the SAP team. The project was being implemented on an AS/400. While I would not claim to be an AS/400 expert (I have enough working knowledge to be creatively innovative on a dangerous fringe), I would listen as they made statements that were erroneous. I would go out, grab the IBM red book and implement what they said could not be done.
Many of these SAP specialists had graduated from college or even had their MBA, had taken a 6 week course in SAP, and were being billed as Jr. SAP Consultants at $125-150/hr. I referred to them affecianately as "puppies" and still do.
I wrote a rather harsh critique of the project and its chances for success. As a result, the company was fired and my employer mounted a $14 million dollar lawsuit. I was subpoenaed for the case but fortunately it was settled before court.
I place the blame on the I.T. industry, but not solely. Business definately threw good business practice out of the window and turned many a "puppy" into a CIO.
However, technology professionals have dropped the ball in being up front on the ability to deliver the goods and at understanding and speaking in business terminology. KPMG/Computerworlds study back in 1998 indicated as much with CEO's and executive management (even back then) indicating actual distrust for their I.T. department or consultants.
I view this as a great thing for technology professionals because, as my article states, the emphasis is back on performance. Not technical performance purely but the entire package. Technology acheiving a well-understood and clearly defined business objective.
I know that was long but I hope it was helpful.
Matthew Moran
Matt,
A star for you article. My brother and a friend of ours are starting a business and your article is what we needed to be more concise with our vision.
Thanks.
Gary Haran
==========================
A star for you article. My brother and a friend of ours are starting a business and your article is what we needed to be more concise with our vision.
Thanks.
Gary Haran
==========================
OhioBreeze
Technical User
With knowledge and training anything we want to do we can accomplish. When either is restricted the result is resentment and envy. However, when these values are not desired the result is crippling. ![[ponder]](/data/assets/smilies/ponder.gif "[ponder] [ponder]")
The dot.com explosion was based on illusions, lack of bussiness plans and plain horse sense.
If you own a grocery story and you have about 200 customers in your surroundings, you can supply them and fullfill their needs.
Try to sell on internet, you will have 200.000 potential customers, some as far away as Timbuktu, the logistics to deliver will kill you. Especially if it is based on tangible goods.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
If you own a grocery story and you have about 200 customers in your surroundings, you can supply them and fullfill their needs.
Try to sell on internet, you will have 200.000 potential customers, some as far away as Timbuktu, the logistics to deliver will kill you. Especially if it is based on tangible goods.
Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr
AIXSPadmin
MIS
Where else could you have no capital except maybe a few rundown old PCs and have a registered domain name that cost you $35 and go public and immediately be worth tens of millions?
Remember, there was nothing to back the collapse. If GM goes out of business there is so many assets. There is very little or no assets for .com's.
Remember, there was nothing to back the collapse. If GM goes out of business there is so many assets. There is very little or no assets for .com's.
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