Does programmers have a right to keep their source codes and only ...

[lousueyesh]

Hi all,

I wonder if someone can tell me whether the programmer has a right to keep their source code and only deliver the finished application to the company he works for if he did not sign any contract to hand over all source codes when hired ???

 

[kHz]

no

 

[CajunCenturion]

It is the other way around. You have to turn over the source code, documentation, and such unless you signed a contract allowing you to keep it. It does not belong to the author, it belongs to the one who paid for it.

Good Luck
--------------
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[pmonett]

I absolutely agree with CajunCenturion. Anything you produce in a work for hire is the property of the entity that hired you to produce it.

You are, of course, entitled to remember what you did, but you cannot keep anything unless the customer agrees. That means that you cannot reuse the methods and procedures to build a similar product and sell it to someone else. If you do so, and the initial customer takes notice, you can be dragged to court for copyright infringement or something like that.

You might be doing the job, but the law gives you no right to the result.

Pascal.

 

[MasterRacker]

Situation A: You work for Hammerhead software. Hammerhead is contracted to produce WidgetTracker for ABC Co. What Hammerhead can keep will be determined by the contract. What you produced is owned by Hammerhead, not you (unless you are Hammerhead - a 1 man shop)

Situation B: You work for ABC Co. and are asked to produce WidgetTracker. ABC Co. owns it all.

In any situation, be careful about using any library code you've written for youself in any projects like this as well. Once you've incorporated the code into someone else's property you may lose right to that as well.

[sub]Jeff
[purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

I was not born cynical - I earned my cynicism through careful observation of the world around me.[/sub]

 

[lionelhill]

In any case, even if you loathe your present company and don't feel you owe them anything, it may be counterproductive to take source code with you. When the whole thing goes wrong in six months, if you don't leave easily-maintained code behind you, at best your code will be thrown away and it will be as though you'd never gone to the trouble of writing it. At worst you'll be remembered (not just by the people you loathe!) as the person who didn't leave a professionally-maintainable system.

 

[pmonett]

Where did he say that he loathed the company ?

Pascal.

 

[lionelhill]

He/she didn't, but in my limited experience of this site, when people start talking about rights, especially to take their source code with them, there is usually an element of tension between them and their current employer. It's a conclusion I jumped to (sorry)

 

[chiph]

I agree with lionelhill -- the tone of the OP, plus the request itself, led me to believe they were ready to leave the playground and wanted to take their ball with them.

Chip H.


____________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

 

[ChrisHunt]

I don't think we can make a general judgement on the programmer's right to keep/re-use source code, it's entirely dependent on the terms of his/her contract (and upon their local legal system/precedents).

If the contract doesn't explicitly say who owns any intellectual property created (and it's a pretty poorly written contract if it doesn't), or there's no contract at all, then you're in the hands of the lawyers to decide what's what. My guess is that you'd have trouble witholding source code, but may be OK to re-use it on your own account.

Get some proper legal advice if you really want to do this - but it sounds like a heap o' trouble to me.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[DrJavaJoe]

It seems to me that lousueyesh is the company not the programmer. If this is the case then the programmer may claim a verbal contract and not give you the code in which case you'll need to sue. I bet next time you'll have them sign a contract.


Two strings walk into a bar. The first string says to the bartender: 'Bartender, I'll have a beer. u.5n$x5t?*&4ru!2[sACC~ErJ'. The second string says: 'Pardon my friend, he isn't NULL terminated'.

 

[MasterRacker]

DrJavaJoe,

There's a perfect example of what a mess the English language is. I immediately intrepreted that lousueyesh was the programmer. When you reread the post, you can intrepret it either way.

[sub]Jeff
[purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

I was not born cynical - I earned my cynicism through careful observation of the world around me.[/sub]

 

[Stella740pl]

Do you think English is in charge for the confusion here?

It's just the question was intentionally phrased so not to give any indication of who is who, just as a formal legal question. Can be done (and often should be done) in many languages.

 

[MasterRacker]

English may not be to blame, but upon a third reading, the actual question isn't whether or not you can keep your code but whether someone here is capable of answering that question.

(Now that we've veered off course.... )

[sub]Jeff
[purple]It's never too early to begin preparing for [/purple]International Talk Like a Pirate Day

I was not born cynical - I earned my cynicism through careful observation of the world around me.[/sub]

 

[DrJavaJoe]

So then kHz response could be extended to

No, someone cannot tell you...;-)


Two strings walk into a bar. The first string says to the bartender: 'Bartender, I'll have a beer. u.5n$x5t?*&4ru!2[sACC~ErJ'. The second string says: 'Pardon my friend, he isn't NULL terminated'.

 

[lousueyesh]

Thank you all for your replies and valuable suggestions!

After reading many, I have decided to return all codes and not get into any possible legal disputes.

Thank you all!

 

[arthurliz]

If I pay you as an employee, then I own everything you make, whether compled or not.

If I pay you as a consultant, to write a custom application, I own your code, whether or not you comple it.

If I pay you or your firm, for what is clearly a finished product, that you advertise freely and sell to other firms, then I don't own your source code.

 

[ChrisHunt]

If I pay you as an employee, then I own everything you make, whether compled or not.

If I pay you as a consultant, to write a custom application, I own your code, whether or not you comple it.

If I pay you or your firm, for what is clearly a finished product, that you advertise freely and sell to other firms, then I don't own your source code.

Not necessarily.

All the above depend on the terms of the contract between the parties concerned. If the contract is so badly drafted as not to specify intellectual property rights, you're entirely in the hands of the lawyers - which is always a lottery. There can be a big gap between common sense and common law!

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[GwydionM]

There is indeed a big gap between common sense and common law. But the law is always likely to favour established authority and the rights of employers against those of workers.

You'll also spoil your prospects of future employment if you get into a dispute.

------------------------------
An old man who lives in the UK

 

[pmonett]

GwydionM, you are quite right. I know personally someone in my area who got into legal dispute with two employers, and has a case against a third. He has actually won the case against the first, is still fighting the second and is quite ready to take on the third.
In other words, he was quite visibly in his right to do so, at least in one case.
Unfortunately, he is now out of a job and, curiously, he is not getting any responses to the curriculums he sends out. Also, I heard from a completely unrelated party that his reputation is now that of a liability - totally disregarding the professional qualifications he has.

Okay, maybe two lawsuits were a bit much. He was legally right, but the end result is that he is going to have to start looking for work a lot farther than he initially intended to.

Always remember that the workplace is a small world.

Pascal.