Does anybody use frames?

[Beren1h]

I was having a debate with a co-worker about the value of frames in HTML pages. I kind of like them because the make a web site more structured. He seems to think that hardly anyone uses frames, so they must not be worth it.

What do you guys think? Do you all design pages with frames or not?


(Our frame of reference is our company intranet which is IE 5.0 exclusive)

 

[gcw1]

I've made a few pages that used frames... designing a site right now that doesn't use frames. I've seen alot of sites that use them. Personally I prefer pages with no frames. Pages with no frames are more search engine friendly.

It all comes down to what the client wants, I guess.

Glenn

 

[SPYDERIX]

I use frames.

Good way to layout a page, so as to make formatting easier in one section of the frame, instead of struggling trying to imitate it in tables.

But as gcw1 says, frames are bad news for search engines, you don't get noticed properly.
Nate
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!"

 

[Trevman]

At one point I think that Netscape wrote an article to the w3c about how frames were counter productive to html and asked them to remove them in next version. They have done this....frames are no longer supported in XHTML 1.1 strict...

I can't find the article right now but as I remember after reading it Netscape's arguements convinced me never to use frames again. ===
Supports Mozilla and Web Standards
Knows HTML/XHTML, CSS1, JavaScript, PHP, C++, DOM1
===

 

[bluranj]

Not true

http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/attr_frame.asp

Ranjan

http://ranjan.i.am

I earn because I learn

 

[crazyboybert]

Sorry Bluranj but the link you have given is to w3cschools and as far as i can tell the information there is not xhtml1.1 specific and is more xhtml1.0 specification.

From what i have heard the new XHTML1.1 spec does deprecate the frameset tag. If you look here you will find no menmtion of framesets

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/

or try a google search for xhtml1.1 tag lists you 'll find plenty of pages with no mention of framesets.

IMO this is a good thing. There is little need for framesets at all with the introduction of the DOM and CSS. We only use them for workarounds now e.g a hidden frame to hold some top level javascript variables or the like. NEVER for page formatting.

rob

 

[BobbaFet]

I hate W3 org. I cant ever find what I'm looking for ...
Even though it says that I'm in the right spot ...

I stopped looking because the information there is
totally useless, what the heck am I supposed with
something like this:

<!ENTITY % xhtml-inlstyle.module &quot;INCLUDE&quot; >
<![%xhtml-inlstyle.module;[
<!ENTITY % xhtml-inlstyle.mod
     PUBLIC &quot;-//W3C//ELEMENTS XHTML Inline Style 1.0//EN&quot;
            &quot;[URL unfurl="true"]http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-inlstyle-1.mod&quot;[/URL] >
%xhtml-inlstyle.mod;]]>

Totally useless ... As I said, I NEVER EVER go to
W3.org to look for something or to find something out.

I'll probally get bashed for this post but this is how I
feel ...

BobbaFet

Everyone has a right to my opinion.

 

[starway]

BobbaFet, the purpose of W3C site is different: it shows it's recommendations concerning some specific issues but doesn't tell about it's support by software in "real world".
It's not so clever to hate something that you don't use properly.

The code shown there is the formal programming syntax that specify general rules of usage.

For me it is very useful sometimes because I see the ways and approaches of further web development. Even if some feature is not implemented yet in any browser, I keep in mind that there's high probability of this in another 6 months with a new browser version release.

Sometimes I get more complete explanation of some feature than in any other resource, shorter and straight to the point.

 

[CliveC]

Framesets are in the XHTML 1.1 standards.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml11-20010531/

Look under The XHTML 1.1 Document Type
And then Structure Module

It seems that even in the HTML standard, the “frameset” type has always been separate from either “transitional” “strict” or “loose”.

Regardless of what ones views may be about framesets might be, a frameset is not really much different from any set of pages. The individual pages themselves do not know that they are part of a frameset and the only difference is that there is one small page, the frameset page, that calls the individual pages. A framset arrangement could be simulated without the frameset page at all in most cases.

It has been my experience that by coding the META tags for description content and keywords, only in the frameset page, that search engines have no problem. Indeed you would not really want them to find the other pages individually.

 

[Wullie]

CliveC,

It has been my experience that by coding the META tags for description content and keywords, only in the frameset page, that search engines have no problem.

It is not so much that the search engine has a problem but more to do with the fact that the actual content that you have on the frameset page is the only content that will be indexed.. You could have loads of keywords on the included pages but when they are not included then what is the point?

If you insist on placing frames on a page then the best option would be to add your content into a no frmaes tag which the engine would pick up.. After that, the user clicks on the link on the search engine and because they have frames enabled then they see the actual framed content..

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.searchit-now.co.uk

http://www.survivorhelp.co.uk

 

[CliveC]

Wullie,

I don’t insist on doing anything, sometimes frames seem appropriate and sometimes they do not. The thrust of my point is that all websites that contain more than one page are, logically speaking, framesets (they contain a set of frames(pages) ), whether or not one chooses to link them from a main frameset page.

 

[tsdragon]

Is a bunch of overlapping divs and iframes really any more search-engine friendly than a frameset? Framesets DO have their uses, and they can be very useful. I don't know why the search engines haven't figures out how to deal with them by now. It shouldn't be that difficult. In fact, for all I know the better search engines have figured it out.
Tracy Dryden
tracy@bydisn.com

http://www.bydisn.com

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[CliveC]

Tracy,

I should preface by saying that I do not know how search engines index sites. However, it may be that by design they do not follow links from a main frameset page for the valid reason that those links may lead to pages that have no coherence outside of the context of the frameset.

As you point out, framesets can be very useful. A combination of framesets and CSS make websites very easy to code and very maintainable. In fact they make it so easy that proprietary products such as Frontpage become more of a hindrance than a help as their chief advantage is coping with navigation between screens.

Twenty four beers in a case, twenty four hours in a day… Coincidence?

I have found your posts, and Wullie’s, and others, most helpful. I do feel however that some posts point new users in the wrong direction based on predjudice rather than reason.

 

[tsdragon]

CliveC: if you ever feel that I'm doing that, please point it out to me. I wouldn't say it was so much prejudice (except in the case of Netscape, which I will freely admit to being prejudiced against) as it is what we are used to, and what we KNOW works. It's hard to keep up with all the new things happening sometimes, so some of us (well, me anyway) tend to stick with what we know will work. However, I'm always willing and eager to learn, so, like I said, if you feel I'm pointing a new user in the wrong direction please feel free to point it out to me (and others). But please do it gently . Tracy Dryden
tracy@bydisn.com

http://www.bydisn.com

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy, and good with mustard.

 

[crazyboybert]

Having a frame based layout doesnt have to mean a search engine unfriendly site. There are a lot of techniques available to improve your sites accessiblity to search engines. noframes content being just one, the inclusion of gateway links an essential other. Search engine watch has lots of very good info on improving your search engine rankings/compatability including advice on frames. Check out

http://searchenginewatch.com/

hope this is useful

rob

 

[gerrygerry]

I'm with Tracy...

1. I HATE NETSCAPE
2. I REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE NETSCAPE
3. The big search engines have figured out frames.
4. In general, I like frames

The biggest danger I have found with frames is using server-side script to load pages into framesets... search engines have a much bigger problem with query strings than framesets.

Nonetheless, I try and avoid using frames in development of webpages just because it's easy to confuse the browser/user... not to mention the hassle inherent to insuring the pages are loaded into the frameset. I like to "keep it clean" and just use a little SSI or some PHP include()'s.

I usually limit my frames use to applications i develop. It's easier to combine everything into one nice little housing. It's slightly difficult to maintain a formatted menu in an app that has 20 different scripts, each with varying forms of output. Throw a link to each one in another frame and your set!

The portability of your client-side code is also risked if you use javascript in a frameset environment. Anytime you use javascript, objects are likely to be different between a non-frames and a frames environment. It makes copying script into another app a bit more difficult if your transitioning between Frames and non-Frames (or vv). -gerrygerry
Go To

http://quickfreewebsite.com!

 

[Wullie]

Gerrygerry,

The big search engines have figured out frames.

Why do I find loads of pages in engines that have no navigation then? When I visit the home page and navigate from there they load into frames.. Also what about bookmarking?? How do explain that to a user that has just started on the internet? I tried to explain thi to a freind when they asked me but even thought I showed them an example they just didn't understand.. Are they stupid? Well that is a different matter altogether but I won't go into that here.. LOL

CliveC,

When I said insist I really did not mean it in a bad way.. It was just the words that I used at the time.. Sorry if you thought otherwise..

The only time I personally use frames are if the site does not need to be optimised for search engines. Staff only sections of site etc..

And I don't mean to point new users in the wrong direction, I try to make sure that I post reasons for all the comments that I make. If they are personal preferences then I normally mention that..

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.searchit-now.co.uk

http://www.survivorhelp.co.uk

 

[BobbaFet]

Hasnt ANYONE here ever been to

http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/robots.html

???
There is the solution to this problem ...

There is NO EXCUSE for NOT USING frames !!!
Maybe there were some problems with frames in the old
days, but certainly not anymore ... BobbaFet

Everyone has a right to my opinion.
E-mail me at caswegkamp@hotmail.com

http://cwcon.50megs.com/

 

[Wullie]

HI mate,

Yes, I have been to robots.txt but what relevance has that to whether a spider will use frames??

Robots.txt is an exclusion protocol and I cannot see anything on that site that would explain whether frames are indexed correctly or not..

Hope this helps Wullie

http://www.freshlookdesign.co.uk

http://www.searchit-now.co.uk

http://www.survivorhelp.co.uk

 

[BobbaFet]

Well with a robots.txt you can tell a robot which pages and
or directories it can or cannot index. So for example if
you wouldnt want a spider to index anything except your
frameset then you just mention all those in the robots.txt
file and they will not be included. All the mayor search
engines support it, as you can see in the list of crawlers.

Furthermore, a simple little javascript (i know it can be
disabled in the browser but anyway ...) can make sure that
pages CANNOT be loaded outside the frameset.

I hope this helps, BobbaFet

Everyone has a right to my opinion.
E-mail me at caswegkamp@hotmail.com

http://cwcon.50megs.com/