do you advise for or against this type of SEO workaround? 2

[jasonindus]

hi,

my client's site is built entirely in flash, but they'd told me that the developer produced dynamic html pages that are served when spiders search the site. this sounds to me like cloaking and can get the client banned. either way they don't seem to be up there in search engine results and having run seo analysis their site is practically invisible.

i told the client that i'd speak to the developer and report my findings to consult on which way to go. here's what the developer said. before i go back to the client i would like to rely on the valid feeback offered by this forum...

Your IP has been added to the list of spiders so that you can now view the HTML version of the site. As you can see this is plain html that represents the text content of the various sections of the site.

The following process is followed in order to adjudge wether to serve the HTML version or the full flash version of the site.

The IP address of the originating request is checked and if there is a strong match with known spider ip addresses and names ( taken from the lists published here:

http://www.iplists.com/nw/

and updated monthly) then the system serves the pages as pure html text without any Flash: these pages have meta info (titles, descriptions and keywords) that is configured by the client within the CMS.

If there is not a match then the system serves either pure XML to the flash movie or in the case of the user arriving at the site or from a deep link then it serves the default index page which has a javascript function to open a window of the correct size to serve the flash movie into and which relays any deeplink onto the flash movie. Once the movie has initiated all requests are handled within the flash via xml communication with the system i.e the flash sits in a static HTML page and DOES NOT reload separate html pages and flash elements for each section.

your help is much appreciated!!

 

[ChrisHunt]

I agree with you - it sounds like cloaking and could get them banned. Even though the reasoning behind it is entirely ethical, the risk of being picked out by an automated process which notes that the same URL gives different content depending on the IP of the reader is not one I'd want to run if it was my site.

My recommendation would be that they use HTML for their site, and embed flash movies only when and if they're necessary. I think you have to choose between Flashy visuals and search engine success, and I'd go for the second.

If they're dedicated to the Flash approach, would it be possible to serve up the HTML pages, but for each page to do a Javascript check for the presence of a Flash player and invoke it if it's there to display the relevant page? That way everyone gets the same content, but Flash users get bounced into the flash version.

Don't ask me how to do it though...


t sounds like an altogether bad idea to me. 100% Flash sites? Ugh!



-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

 

[Grenage]

I think they have their place. A well designed flash site can look quite good, but I agree with you.

When I am browsing a website, I personally like to be given the option of viewing flash or html. If you have something along these lines, you won't have a problem.

Carlsberg don't run I.T departments, but if they did they'd probably be more fun.

 

[ChrisHirst]

I agree with you - it sounds like cloaking and could get them banned. Even though the reasoning behind it is entirely ethical, the risk of being picked out by an automated process which notes that the same URL gives different content depending on the IP of the reader is not one I'd want to run if it was my site.

I agree. Definitely NOT what you want to do at all.
It is IP cloacking.

Take a look at How to SEO Flash, by a fellow mod at HighRankings, Jonathan Hochman.
Works very well, shows Flash to Flash and javascript enabled user-agents, shows HTML to the rest.
No IP or bot UA detection needed.


Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Foamcow]

I'd do it the other way around.

Show the HTML content by default and sniff for Flash then redirect accordingly.

<honk>*:O)</honk>

Tyres: Mine's a pint of the black stuff.
Mike: You can't drink a pint of Bovril.

 

[feherke]

Hi

I agree with Grenage. Why to check for Flash plug-in and not just ask the visitor ?

By the way, I have Flash plug-in installed, but I also have Flashblock. So I will see only a failed attempt to display Flash animation. And probably will just leave.

Feherke.

http://rootshell.be/~feherke/

 

[jasonindus]

thanks guys, your advice is very much appreciated. i love the way i get quick professional advise from this forum. Foamcow makes a valid point about showing the html as default and redirecting flash/ javascript enabled browsers to the flash site.

in the last meeting the client was pretty adamant about displaying just flash but complained that their site did not appear in google. it appears that if i search the client name they show up and its the cloaked html site that is cached.. so i guess they are not yet banned.

i'll just need to convince them to default to html and that will allow me to work on optimising those html pages. they certainly wont go with the option of combining a flash and html site. not even an option tfor visitors to choose either html or flash.

my only concern is if visitors are predominately redirected to the flash part of the site... then issues like google page rank still remain low or non existent because there needs to be page view activity registered on the html version of the site right?? they dont want any links or html keyword content on the flash index page so should i expect their engine results to remain low?

 

[Foamcow]

Unless they are a major brand with alot of very high quality incoming links then yes. Don't expect miracles.

It does happen though because at the end of the day Google et al want to deliver the best results. If your client's site is the best (from an info perspective) then they deserve to rank highly.

What's the nature of the business that requires a full multimedia experience via Flash?

<honk>*:O)</honk>

Tyres: Mine's a pint of the black stuff.
Mike: You can't drink a pint of Bovril.

 

[jasonindus]

they are a UK and international property site that allows you to search its database and has a login area to save searches.

i wouldn't say they are widely known but the are fairly known both in the UK and international.. on the upper scale of the business

 

[ChrisHirst]

then issues like google page rank still remain low or non existent because there needs to be page view activity registered on the html version of the site right??

Wrong
PageRank (as seen on the silly green bar) apart from being of no use of value has NOTHING to do with page views or site "activity"

they dont want any links or html keyword content on the flash index page so should i expect their engine results to remain low

Yes.




Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Foamcow]

Hmm, a property site.

Ultimately their potential clients won't give a fig if the site isn't a multimedia tour de force.

However, I can see that there is some potential for great use of Flash in there for virtual viewings etc.

At the end of the day, they need to ask themselves who the site is for and what its purpose is.

Then calculate the balance of the 'whizziness' that can be afforded by Flash and quality, crawlable content that comes from using HTML and great photography. Once they have determined the balance, then build a site that meets the requirement.

Property, especially high end, international property is a very competitive marketplace.
Personally, and I'm sure you think the same, I'd advise a hybrid site of HTML/CSS and good design that is enhanced by Flash content.

Either that or hammer paid online and offline marketing like nobodies business. The profitability of their product might make this a viable option.

<honk>*:O)</honk>

Tyres: Mine's a pint of the black stuff.
Mike: You can't drink a pint of Bovril.

 

[1DMF]

What HTML tags can you use to check if Java / Flash / QuickTime etc.. is installed or not?

"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you.

 

[ChrisHirst]

None at all


You have to script the detection.

Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[jasonindus]

i've searched and read up on google page rank a good few times now and i won't be embarrassed to admit that i didn't understand it. i haven't come across a simple easy to digest or snapshot explanation of what achieves a successful or poor page rank, why it is important and how the numbers should be interpreted.

can someone break it down in layman's terms?

 

[ChrisHirst]

very simple

It's not important

That's it. All you need to know about toolbar PageRank in a nutshell.

See for more.

http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17365

Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[1DMF]

Well my understanding of page rank is primerily down to 'reciprical links' , the more sites that link to you the better, and the higher the page rank of the site linking to you the better.

Google takes the opinion that if a high page ranking site links to you ,that site is endorsing the quality of your site, so increases your page rank.

I beleive , symantecs , keyword relevance, compliant and bot/spider friendly code plays a part as I have a page rank of 3 on many of my pages without anyone linking to that page or at best only a couple of sites, so something else has to be used by google to determine giving me a page rank 3 for what appears to be nothing.

But be carefull not to fall foul of link farming etc.. if a google concidered 'BAD' site links to you or you appear on many of these sites it can go against you.

How you tell what sites these are is a mystery to me and why it should count i'm unsure, if that was the case we'd all add our competitors to these 'BAD' sites to deminish their pagerank, wouldn't we?

I don't think their is a magical definitive answer, or if there is , I haven't found it yet




"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you.

 

[feherke]

Hi

What HTML tags can you use to check if Java / Flash / QuickTime etc.. is installed or not?

Look at Henrik Gemal's comprehensive collection of detection tricks :

http://gemal.dk/browserspy/

Feherke.

http://rootshell.be/~feherke/

 

[1DMF]

but that looked to me as though it needed Javascript / VBScript / Perl to work.

i guess the only tag that can detect client side functionality is <noscript> so JS is the lowest denominator.

NO JS , NO NOTHING.

except X/HTML & CSS of course!

"In complete darkness we are all the same, only our knowledge and wisdom separates us, don't let your eyes deceive you.

 

[feherke]

Hi

NO JS , NO NOTHING.

except X/HTML & CSS of course!

Then why do you care about

Java / Flash / QuickTime

?

None of those pertain to the "X/HTML & CSS" category.

Feherke.

http://rootshell.be/~feherke/

 

[ChrisHirst]

I beleive , symantecs , keyword relevance, compliant and bot/spider friendly code plays a part as I have a page rank of 3 on many of my pages without anyone linking to that page or at best only a couple of sites, so something else has to be used by google to determine giving me a page rank 3 for what appears to be nothing.

Nope. There is only one thing that "causes" PageRank, and that is internal and external links to that page.

But be carefull not to fall foul of link farming etc.. if a google concidered 'BAD' site links to you or you appear on many of these sites it can go against you.

Nope. Who you link TO is what will go against you.

Chris.

Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Woo Hoo! the cobblers kids get new shoes.
People Counting Systems

So long, and thanks for all the fish.